Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[MrWizard]

Suggesting this here because of the beta agreement. Now that the tech is in place, please make Tenser's Transformation work like Combat Expertise. Double spell point usage while the spell is active. This will make the spell actually have a use, as opposed to being a hindrance the way it is now.

shucks, i was hoping this was gonna be making the spell give you that +5 ac so i could get power attack

[Monkey_Archer]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Not if it provides significant stacking benefits...

[Aesop]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Hence the stat improvements. It really is supposed to be a spell that has a negative... I wouldn't complain about it not having one, but it would be a bit more on target

[Bart_D]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Not if it provides significant stacking benefits...

Exactly. Assuming +10ish sp per spell, a sufficient stacking benefit for me to use it rather that DP clickies would be something like adding the effect of Divine Favor (+3 attack and damage) or extra attack speed. The "extra" could be staggered or delayed to make self-casting better than scrolls but the spell should at the same time remain attractive to melee arcanes who usually have less than 20 caster levels. Just having it kick in at CL 12 would do the trick.

General thoughts about the spell
- It really seems rather silly that arcanes who dabble in melee rely on a divine spell when there is an arcane spell for exactly that purpose
- It should help arcanes fight while hindering their spellcasting. Making spellcasting impossible means the spell is never used and might as well not exist in the game, so a cost of some sort would be better.
- It takes up a valuable level 6 spell slot which a DP clickie does not, so it should be more attractive than DP clickies
- It should not benefit caster-spec'd arcanes (significantly) more than melee-spec'd ones, so benefits should not depend (much) on caster level or casting stat

[parvo]

Yea, because DDO characters are so weak. Especially arcanes.

There's nothing wrong with the spell as is. The problem rather, is the abundance of monty haul loot making it obscolete. The objective of making every spell desirable has thrown the balance of player vs. environment off like never before. Continuing that progression is not going to help the game.

[Aesop]

Exactly. Assuming +10ish sp per spell, a sufficient stacking benefit for me to use it rather that DP clickies would be something like adding the effect of Divine Favor (+3 attack and damage) or extra attack speed. The "extra" could be staggered or delayed to make self-casting better than scrolls but the spell should at the same time remain attractive to melee arcanes who usually have less than 20 caster levels. Just having it kick in at CL 12 would do the trick.

General thoughts about the spell
- It really seems rather silly that arcanes who dabble in melee rely on a divine spell when there is an arcane spell for exactly that purpose
- It should help arcanes fight while hindering their spellcasting. Making spellcasting impossible means the spell is never used and might as well not exist in the game, so a cost of some sort would be better.
- It takes up a valuable level 6 spell slot which a DP clickie does not, so it should be more attractive than DP clickies
- It should not benefit caster-spec'd arcanes (significantly) more than melee-spec'd ones, so benefits should not depend (much) on caster level or casting stat

Just to point this out. The suggestion I put forth there actually did have a stacking benefits that progressed.

When first gotten it would provide +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +2 AC, +11hp, +1 Fortitude Save full BAB and Proficiency in all martial weapons

At Caster level 15 that would increase to +2 to Hit, +2 to damage, +30hp, +2 Fortitude Saves, +4AC full BAB and proficiency in all martial weapons

At caster level 19 (which still allows a class splash)this further increases to +3 to Hit +3 to damage +3 to fortitude saves +57hp +6 AC full BAB and proficiency in all martial weapons


hp bonus and BAB are dependent on total character level

So its stacking and progressive to give more benefit for actually casting the spell. If that is too much just change it to caster level 11 with improvements at caster level 16 or 17

Aesop

[Infant]

Yea, because DDO characters are so weak. Especially arcanes.

There's nothing wrong with the spell as is. The problem rather, is the abundance of monty haul loot making it obscolete. The objective of making every spell desirable has thrown the balance of player vs. environment off like never before. Continuing that progression is not going to help the game.

We're not talking about making very powerful builds more powerful, we are talking about making few niche builds (arcane melees) a bit more viable.

Infant

[parvo]

We're not talking about making very powerful builds more powerful, we are talking about making few niche builds (arcane melees) a bit more viable.

Infant

They are already viable. My top PD character is exactly that. After five years of PD playing tough rule sets, he is amongst a handful of characters at his level. He doesn't need a huge power boost. This is a request by players who want thier special pet build style to become uber overnight.

[jackabat]

They are already viable. My top PD character is exactly that. After five years of PD playing tough rule sets, he is amongst a handful of characters at his level. He doesn't need a huge power boost. This is a request by players who want thier special pet build style to become uber overnight.

Does your character ever use tensor's transformation, a spell ostensibly intended exactly for his type of spellcasting?

[Monkey_Archer]

They are already viable. My top PD character is exactly that. After five years of PD playing tough rule sets, he is amongst a handful of characters at his level. He doesn't need a huge power boost. This is a request by players who want thier special pet build style to become uber overnight.

Now you're talking about a niche within a niche...
I have nothing against PD, I've played PD, but it is still a niche playstyle. A strong PD build is not necessarily a strong non-PD build, and is even less likely to be a useful epic build. Even if tensor's does get a significant power boost would it even be worth using in PD, at the cost of not being able to use your buffs, selfheling, clickies, etc?

As long as casting is still restricted, tensors could give +20 damage and still not make a melee caster "uber". You'd still be doing less damage then a real melee character and would still be much less survivable.

[parvo]

Now you're talking about a niche within a niche...
I have nothing against PD, I've played PD, but it is still a niche playstyle. A strong PD build is not necessarily a strong non-PD build, and is even less likely to be a useful epic build. Even if tensor's does get a significant power boost would it even be worth using in PD, at the cost of not being able to use your buffs, selfheling, clickies, etc?

As long as casting is still restricted, tensors could give +20 damage and still not make a melee caster "uber". You'd still be doing less damage then a real melee character and would still be much less survivable.

If you want a viable epic melee build, than build one. Don't build a gimp and cry to Turbine to save your gimp build. I don't use Tenser's often (in permadeath play) because it turns me into a fighter without spell capability, as it should. You talk as if it's unfair that a properly built specialty class can outdamage a warrior-mage in melee. Given the huge buff of Tenser's added to the capability of casting spells (at double cost), there would be zero reason for a warrior-mage not to have it on all the time. Mobs are going to die twice as fast, the warrior mage takes half the damage and therefore the only thing they need to cast while Tensered, (repair) will be cast half as often, meaning SP cost is a wash, but the character is doing lots more damage.

I'm not here to say the game should be balanced. That battle is lost. Turb decided a dead fish should be able to easily conquer the game. But let's at least hold the line somewhere.

[Monkey_Archer]

<snip>
Given the huge buff of Tenser's added
<snip>
Mobs are going to die twice as fast, the warrior mage takes half the damage
<snip>
but the character is doing lots more damage.

You are still talking about tensor's transformation right? The level 6 spell? The one that currently gives absolutely no benefit to damage whatsoever?

[zukt]

If you want a viable epic melee build, than build one. Don't build a gimp and cry to Turbine to save your gimp build. I don't use Tenser's often (in permadeath play) because it turns me into a fighter without spell capability, as it should. You talk as if it's unfair that a properly built specialty class can outdamage a warrior-mage in melee. Given the huge buff of Tenser's added to the capability of casting spells (at double cost), there would be zero reason for a warrior-mage not to have it on all the time. Mobs are going to die twice as fast, the warrior mage takes half the damage and therefore the only thing they need to cast while Tensered, (repair) will be cast half as often, meaning SP cost is a wash, but the character is doing lots more damage.

I'm not here to say the game should be balanced. That battle is lost. Turb decided a dead fish should be able to easily conquer the game. But let's at least hold the line somewhere.

As someone that has played melee arcanes for years, I can say with confidence you don't know what you're talking about. Every melee arcane now uses divine power clickies, and if it cost double sp while tenser'ed, they would still just use divine power clickies. If the only thing they cast was repair, they'd just play a divine with some haste and rage clickies, or even just a barbarian with silver flame potions.

The notion that casting with Tenser's up would make a build 'uber' is simply ignorant. Everyone just uses divine power clickies allready, and going from one minute and an inventory spot to 4 minutes without and one less 6th level slot is not exactly a vast power increase.

[Infant]

If you want a viable epic melee build, than build one. Don't build a gimp and cry to Turbine to save your gimp build. I don't use Tenser's often (in permadeath play) because it turns me into a fighter without spell capability, as it should. You talk as if it's unfair that a properly built specialty class can outdamage a warrior-mage in melee. Given the huge buff of Tenser's added to the capability of casting spells (at double cost), there would be zero reason for a warrior-mage not to have it on all the time. Mobs are going to die twice as fast, the warrior mage takes half the damage and therefore the only thing they need to cast while Tensered, (repair) will be cast half as often, meaning SP cost is a wash, but the character is doing lots more damage.

I'm not here to say the game should be balanced. That battle is lost. Turb decided a dead fish should be able to easily conquer the game. But let's at least hold the line somewhere.

I just don't see how, say, full BAB without any penalties would make the spell OP. A casting-oriented mage probably still wouldn't use it. It just would make a melee-oriented casters same as they are now minus the annoying micromanagement of DP-clickies. At least for non-PD a melee caster would somewhat stay a flavor build (although I've seen Tukaw builds perform excellently, they were very well geared and played).

Infant

[parvo]

As someone that has played melee arcanes for years, I can say with confidence you don't know what you're talking about. Every melee arcane now uses divine power clickies, and if it cost double sp while tenser'ed, they would still just use divine power clickies. If the only thing they cast was repair, they'd just play a divine with some haste and rage clickies, or even just a barbarian with silver flame potions.

The notion that casting with Tenser's up would make a build 'uber' is simply ignorant. Everyone just uses divine power clickies allready, and going from one minute and an inventory spot to 4 minutes without and one less 6th level slot is not exactly a vast power increase.

Confidence is overrated.

[Taluron]

as is the spell hurts much more than it helps.

Could you imagine how effective Tenser's transformation would be as an offensive spell is we could cast on enemy casters?

Sayyyyy!

No THERE's an idea.

Change nothing about the spell but its rangea and target
Range from Personal to Close.
Target from Self to One Person.
And cast it on the enemy.

Chaos Balls have done this to my casters in Devil Assault and Xorian Cypher

[Taluron]

It does NOT need to be better than Divine Power

Um, given it is a higher level spell it really does need to be better.
That's actually the point of it being higher level.

Its supposed to make the caster Melee capable (though not to a degree that really threatens Melee characters).

In its original form (1st/2nd ed PnP DnD) Tenser's Transformation was supposed to make the caster
TEH UB3R5 C0MB4T M0NST3R.
(For a few minutes/one combat).

3rd ed lost that and DDO stuck a fork in it.

[voodoogroves]

Um, given it is a higher level spell it really does need to be better.
That's actually the point of it being higher level.

Arcane / divine balance.

If it were generic, sure. A level 6 wizard spell that "heals" should not heal better than a clerical spell ... this is similar (you may disagree, but the divine lists are filled with direct combat boots - its one of their core themes).

[Entelech]

Sayyyyy!

No THERE's an idea.

Change nothing about the spell but its rangea and target
Range from Personal to Close.
Target from Self to One Person.
And cast it on the enemy.

Chaos Balls have done this to my casters in Devil Assault and Xorian Cypher

That's exactly why this discussion is happening. A self-only "buff" spell that costs a special material component should *not* be something horribly debilitating that you would only cast on your enemies to cripple them.

Regardless of whether you're Permadeath or the most P0\/\/3RG4M3R of elitists, the spell needs a fix.

And don't go quoting 3.5 PnP at me either. It was a stupid spell in 3.5e and with the proper feats, you *could* cast it on enemy spellcasters to cripple them. And it was the only time the spell got used.

[parvo]

That's exactly why this discussion is happening. A self-only "buff" spell that costs a special material component should *not* be something horribly debilitating that you would only cast on your enemies to cripple them.

Regardless of whether you're Permadeath or the most P0\/\/3RG4M3R of elitists, the spell needs a fix.

And don't go quoting 3.5 PnP at me either. It was a stupid spell in 3.5e and with the proper feats, you *could* cast it on enemy spellcasters to cripple them. And it was the only time the spell got used.

I find this argument lacking. If clickies weren't so prevalent, players would cast this spell. It's not that the spell sucks, it's just that clickies are better. Furthermore, since this game is so god aweful monty haul, the enhancement bonuses are a non-factor.

A better solution is simply change the stat bonuses to something that stacks with enhancement. The restriction on casting should remain.