Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Infant]

Ah ok.

I'm a little stuck on the flavor of the spell in general. Its supposed to make the caster Melee capable (though not to a degree that really threatens Melee characters). The question becomes is it going far enough with BAB increase, and is it going too far with simply allowing spell casting.


It is a 6th level spell so in some ways I think it should have something more in it and yet with the flavor of the spell there should be some sort of real penalty.

It keep bringing me back to earlier suggestions.

Bonus
1. BAB
2. Str and Con (not Enhancement but perhaps Morale or Exceptional bonus)
3. AC (perhaps either Dodge or Natural Armor)
4. Martial Weapon Proficiency

Penalty
Spell Casting Penalty (I'm thinking something like metamagic that increases spell costs by 10-20sp)

I'd also make the bonus Progressive so that there is a reason to cast the spell and have a benefit over scroll casting it.


CL 11 +2 (Str, Con, and AC)
CL 15 +4
CL 19 +6

This, to me, seems more like what the spell was intended to be

Aesop

IMO, one should decide whether the spell is to be designed for casting-specced casters (Max Int/Cha with all level-ups and corresponding feats) or for melee-specced casters (High base Str, mediocre Int).

I lean towards the second. What casting-specced caster would go in melee in mid-end game? With all the SLA's we have it's no longer necessary (although could be done semi-effectively).

However extra SP cost could ruin it for melee-specced casters. DP clickies could be the better alternative.

+6 Morale or Exceptional (thats +4 over Rage or +3 over Endgame gear, right?) to Str and to Con could be a bit OP.

As for the advantage of spellbook-casting over scroll casting: A decent duration would be already an advantage.

Infant

[Aesop]

IMO, one should decide whether the spell is to be designed for casting-specced casters (Max Int/Cha with all level-ups and corresponding feats) or for melee-specced casters (High base Str, mediocre Int).

I lean towards the second. What casting-specced caster would go in melee in mid-end game? With all the SLA's we have it's no longer necessary (although could be done semi-effectively).

However extra SP cost could ruin it for melee-specced casters. DP clickies could be the better alternative.

+6 Morale or Exceptional (thats +4 over Rage or +3 over Endgame gear, right?) to Str and to Con could be a bit OP.

As for the advantage of spellbook-casting over scroll casting: A decent duration would be already an advantage.

Infant

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

Realize the Strength and Constitution increase that these characters do not have the Barb or Fighter Str or Con bonuses (fighter gain +3 Str from enhancement barbs gain metric tons of bonuses from their own rage and rage enhancements) Not to mention the PrE bonuses that these classes get that the caster will not have any access to.

Duration is not a good balance point for casting vs scrolling because you can always buy more scrolls. Have a stack of 100 scrolls and thats about a full SP pool worth of spells. That's why an actually progressive spell would be more useful towards caster than a static one that only has a slight duration increase (often to the detriment of the caster currently)

Aesop

[Infant]

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

Realize the Strength and Constitution increase that these characters do not have the Barb or Fighter Str or Con bonuses (fighter gain +3 Str from enhancement barbs gain metric tons of bonuses from their own rage and rage enhancements) Not to mention the PrE bonuses that these classes get that the caster will not have any access to.

Duration is not a good balance point for casting vs scrolling because you can always buy more scrolls. Have a stack of 100 scrolls and thats about a full SP pool worth of spells. That's why an actually progressive spell would be more useful towards caster than a static one that only has a slight duration increase (often to the detriment of the caster currently)

Aesop

I am a new player. I still tend to think in categories of non-raid-geared builds. For me that is of course no Torc. 10 SP more on every reconstruct, AoE, Haste. Rage etc. could be a large cost. As mentioned, Divine casters have the same spell without penalties. As for the bonuses to Str and Con -- in the end it should be comparable (also in terms of stacking with other buffs/gear) to Divine Favor's +3 attack/damage.


To the point of scrolls vs. casting: I would really like to see the spell have decent duration (say 3-5 mins) when scroll-cast. For me right now there is nothing more annoying on my bard then to carry a ton of DP clickies and to activate them every minute in combat. Micromanagement is boring and not challenging. Slightly progressing bonuses, extendability and longer duration seems a good reason to keep that spell in my spellbook.

Infant

[zukt]

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

It would totally kill it. Speaking as someone with several melee casters with torc and CO. The only builds that would use this are casters that only use spells for buffs, and then rarely, as it requires at least 11 casting levels where you start using actual caster spells.

This suggestion is both silly and painful. You would have groups where people start yelling at the caster for messing around with Tenser's depleting their sp pool so they can do something they're already not very good at 1/3rd as well as an actual melee, and thats if they actually have a few combat feats.

[Aesop]

It would totally kill it. Speaking as someone with several melee casters with torc and CO. The only builds that would use this are casters that only use spells for buffs, and then rarely, as it requires at least 11 casting levels where you start using actual caster spells.

This suggestion is both silly and painful. You would have groups where people start yelling at the caster for messing around with Tenser's depleting their sp pool so they can do something they're already not very good at 1/3rd as well as an actual melee, and thats if they actually have a few combat feats.

My suggestion was as opposed to the suggestion to DOUBLE SP COSTS which is what the original OP says.

If 10 SP per spell extra on a character that has made a CHOICE to cast a spell so that they can Melee some seems crazy high to you... what do you think of the current spell not allowing you to cast at all?


The spell is kinda placed there for something akin to a niche build melee caster a'la spell sword and not for the primary caster types.

What would you prefer? No casting spells while active, double spell point costs for spells, or +10sp per spell...

Personally to maintain a hint of the spells flavor I don't see the devs removing the casting restriction outright

Aesop

[jcTharin]

My suggestion was as opposed to the suggestion to DOUBLE SP COSTS which is what the original OP says.

If 10 SP per spell extra on a character that has made a CHOICE to cast a spell so that they can Melee some seems crazy high to you... what do you think of the current spell not allowing you to cast at all?


The spell is kinda placed there for something akin to a niche build melee caster a'la spell sword and not for the primary caster types.

What would you prefer? No casting spells while active, double spell point costs for spells, or +10sp per spell...

Personally to maintain a hint of the spells flavor I don't see the devs removing the casting restriction outright

Aesop

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

[Monkey_Archer]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Not if it provides significant stacking benefits...

[Bart_D]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Not if it provides significant stacking benefits...

Exactly. Assuming +10ish sp per spell, a sufficient stacking benefit for me to use it rather that DP clickies would be something like adding the effect of Divine Favor (+3 attack and damage) or extra attack speed. The "extra" could be staggered or delayed to make self-casting better than scrolls but the spell should at the same time remain attractive to melee arcanes who usually have less than 20 caster levels. Just having it kick in at CL 12 would do the trick.

General thoughts about the spell
- It really seems rather silly that arcanes who dabble in melee rely on a divine spell when there is an arcane spell for exactly that purpose
- It should help arcanes fight while hindering their spellcasting. Making spellcasting impossible means the spell is never used and might as well not exist in the game, so a cost of some sort would be better.
- It takes up a valuable level 6 spell slot which a DP clickie does not, so it should be more attractive than DP clickies
- It should not benefit caster-spec'd arcanes (significantly) more than melee-spec'd ones, so benefits should not depend (much) on caster level or casting stat

[Aesop]

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.

Hence the stat improvements. It really is supposed to be a spell that has a negative... I wouldn't complain about it not having one, but it would be a bit more on target