Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Aesop]

You are apparently taking it as a given that it would be good for DDO's Wizards and Sorcerers to have a spell to make them useful in melee combat. That emphatically has not been justified.

Then why have a spell that claims to do just that?

Honestly even with the suggested change it wouldn't make them useful in combat it would just give them a chance to actually hit the target.

However I've grown tired of answering your questions without you answering mine so until you do I'll just stop worrying about it. More specifically if you have some point you want to make state it please.

Oh as an aside even a base 10 strength wizard could have more than a 20strength without doing much in the way of work... much more if he worked at it even a little.

[Aesop]

so a 40 cha paladin(oh right 18 base +3 enh +1 human +4 tome +7 item +1 litany +3 exc+5 levelups = 42 not 40) w/ dm 4 and tenser's scrolls ftw? they'd have this for epic cbs and the epic dynastic falcattas would work all on their own....

that'd be fun

Are you saying that possibility is a bad thing? I mean it could lead to some interesting critical smites I suppose but overall I don't think it would be overly useful for standard combat.

[Aesop]

I rather think about an arcane with melee feats specced for melee (Tukaw-like or something). Who all of a sudden has very solid saves, profane (or whatever stacking) bonuses to Con, Str and to hit, full BAB, excellent Quickened self-healing and very high nuking potential with DoTs and other no-save AoE spells. Right now, Tukaw is all that but without the stacking bonuses and with a ton of DP clickies to manage.

I would suggest just make the spell full BAB and not much else. Also make it decent duration and available in scroll form, no clickies. Such that you have to make an investment (UMD) to use it and gain decent benefit. This way melee arcane characters become more viable and we get rid of the annoying clickie-management for rogues and bards (it's not challenging -- just annoying and inventory-filling).

Infant

I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what you are saying. I'm probably just misreading what you wrote but if you could explain I'd appreciate it.

I can say that granting just full BAB while also removing spell casting would really kill this spell ... though effectively that's all it really does currently as the spell does not stack with anything else.

Aesop

[Aesop]

I liked to see Tenser's amped up to fit DDO better. Something along the lines of:

Duration: 30 seconds + 6 seconds/level
Spell point cost: 15 SP

You gain an enhancement bonus to strength equal to DC.
You gain an enhancement bonus to constitution equal to DC/2.
You gain +4 natural armor bonus.
You gain moderate fortification.
Your base attack bonus equals your character level.

Your primary casting stat is reduced by the DC of the spell.
You gain +2 to your primary casting stat for each level of spell focus transmutation.

-----======-----=======-----======-----

IMO, this would fit the original spirit of Tenser's (allow a caster to be capable of melee) to the very powerful DDO world. It allows an opportunity for casting (with enhancement items & exceptional bonuses alone can cast 9th level spells).

With the impact to their SP pool (caused by losing primary stat) and the loss of their DC's, casters won't be in Tenser's all the time. The spell would become an excellent choice for low SP situations, adding a lot more fun than casters get waiting for SLA timers when down to echoes of power.

One of the old suggestions I made was to just make the stat bonuses +2 Exceptional Bonuses plus an additional +2 per 4 caster levels beyond 11. This would give +6 exceptional strength and con at caster level 19... this would limit the usefulness of scrolls as they would be CL 11 making the actual spell more valuable.

[FooWonk]

so a 40 cha paladin(oh right 18 base +3 enh +1 human +4 tome +7 item +1 litany +3 exc+5 levelups = 42 not 40) w/ dm 4 and tenser's scrolls ftw? they'd have this for epic cbs and the epic dynastic falcattas would work all on their own....

that'd be fun

A little correction to my original suggestion: DC should be casting ability bonus.

Without that correction your paladin would only get:
+4 natural armor bonus,
moderate fortification,
+4 strength (over +7 item),
10 charisma

Because the scroll DC would be 22
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122010

With change to primary casting ability, you'd not even get a STR boost.

[FooWonk]

One of the old suggestions I made was to just make the stat bonuses +2 Exceptional Bonuses plus an additional +2 per 4 caster levels beyond 11. This would give +6 exceptional strength and con at caster level 19... this would limit the usefulness of scrolls as they would be CL 11 making the actual spell more valuable.

Yeah, I read that. The reason I made my suggestion is that that +6 exceptional strength isn't much of a transformation. It'd be a great boost for a caster that is already specced for melee, but that doesn't really make the spell broadly useful. There'd be a few builds that used it and no one else.

[Monkey_Archer]

Yeah, I read that. The reason I made my suggestion is that that +6 exceptional strength isn't much of a transformation. It'd be a great boost for a caster that is already specced for melee, but that doesn't really make the spell broadly useful. There'd be a few builds that used it and no one else.

Tensor's transformation SHOULD be more effective for casters that already spec for melee.
The purpose of this spell should be to enhance ANY caster's melee ability equally, not to give caster-spec casters a bigger boost then other multiclassed or strength based builds, just because they were worse off to begin with.

While I understand the need for the benefit of the spell to based off actually being a caster (to avoid it just being another buff for melee toons with UMD) giving large extra benfits for having either high transmutation DC, full 20 wizard levels, or max intel is nothing short of an attack on every melee-caster build in existence, and is basically equivalent to telling every melee-caster to reroll as a pure 20 transmutation archmage .

I still think tensor's should be roughly the equivalent to a cleric with Divine power + Divine favor in one spell. That is, it gives full BAB, non-stacking enhancment stat buff, and a stacking bonus to hit and damage that increases to approximately +3/+3. Any further benefits over that should be based on whether or not it still restricts casting, or increases the cost of spells as per th OP suggestion.

[Aesop]

Yeah, I read that. The reason I made my suggestion is that that +6 exceptional strength isn't much of a transformation. It'd be a great boost for a caster that is already specced for melee, but that doesn't really make the spell broadly useful. There'd be a few builds that used it and no one else.

Well at the time I was anticipating the spell to be used primarily by casters who wanted to spec for melee.

I also made the modified suggestion to have casting Stat apply to to Hit bonus instead of Strength. of course the downside there is that those that a melee spec'd would likely get less of a boost than those spec'd for max casting

[voodoogroves]

Tensor's transformation SHOULD be more effective for casters that already spec for melee.
The purpose of this spell should be to enhance ANY caster's melee ability equally, not to give caster-spec casters a bigger boost then other multiclassed or strength based builds, just because they were worse off to begin with.

While I understand the need for the benefit of the spell to based off actually being a caster (to avoid it just being another buff for melee toons with UMD) giving large extra benfits for having either high transmutation DC, full 20 wizard levels, or max intel is nothing short of an attack on every melee-caster build in existence, and is basically equivalent to telling every melee-caster to reroll as a pure 20 transmutation archmage .

I still think tensor's should be roughly the equivalent to a cleric with Divine power + Divine favor in one spell. That is, it gives full BAB, non-stacking enhancment stat buff, and a stacking bonus to hit and damage that increases to approximately +3/+3. Any further benefits over that should be based on whether or not it still restricts casting, or increases the cost of spells as per th OP suggestion.

There's a reason Divine Might gives BAB based on character level and not caster level. Sure, it's strong but that one little thing makes it far less abusable.

I support making Tenser's useful, or removing it completely. It does NOT need to be better than Divine Power and it doesn't need to leapfrog casters over melees or make every melee want to scroll it.


Thought #1: Make it essentially cast Madstone Rage. You can't cast spells, it gives BAB, proficiency and stacking STR / CON. That makes it thematically different than Divine Power and should be somewhat easy to code.

Thought #2: Make it like a slightly weaker Divine Power. Keep the spell like it is now, remove one boost (natural armor, say) but allow you to cast through it. It's still functionally useful, but like in PNP the ability bonuses are largely eclipsed by items. It's also still one rung down from Divine Power fitting w/ the arcane/divine split.

Thought #3: Remove it and end the debate.

[jcTharin]

Just dumping some brainstorming here.
______________________________________

what we need from the spell.

1. full BAB.
2. To be the preferred choice for arcanes who want to melee instead of DP clickies.

that's all we need. anything else would just be a minor bonus.
__________________________________________________

quick ideas for changes.

option 1: remove the crippling loss of spell casting ability.

Tenser's Transformation
spell level: 6
duration: as rage spell (could easily be any kind of duration from same as haste to one min per caster level)
a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution. this bonus improves to +6 at caster level 16 (just throwing out a number)
BAB as Fighter
proficiency with all simple and martial weapons
no loss to casting ability.
uses a normal ingredient for that level spell instead of a potion of bulls strength.

This is only something that would do the same thing as DP but as an arcane spell. and it would actually be better for an arcane to use this instead of a pile of DP clickies. the only thing you want Tenser's for is the full BAB, all else is fluff. however this spell can replace your +6 str item.


Option 2: keep the compleate loss to casting ability, and make it an extreamly huge buff that is worth the loss of DOT spells/self healing/ext.

Tenser's greater Transformation
spell level: 7 (or maybe 8 or 9)
duration: as rage spell (it needs to be short, so it cant be one min per caster level)
BAB as Fighter
proficiency with all simple and martial weapons
an enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution equal to half your caster level. to a max of +8 dexterity and constitution at level 16 and a max of +10 strength at caster level 20. (+4 str over a +6 item. a warrior of untold death and destruction this does not make)
an enhancement bonus to AC equal to half caster level (+10 at level 20)
a natural armor bonus to AC same as ranger barkskin spell
fortitude save Advancement equal to fighter (a pure wizard will get +6 to fort saves at level 20)
DR/- equal to caster level (not sure what to cap this at. maybe at level 15 maybe at level 20. it should be more than 10 though.)
resistance to all elemental damage equal to twice caster level. as resist energy (this is 40 base at level 20. sorcerer savants will change this)
temporary protection from all forms of elemental damage as Protection from Elements spell but with a max caster level of 20 instead of 10. (and maybe make it stack)
1d10 temporary hit-points per caster level
can not cast any spells or use any items that cast spells. exactly as Tenser's is now.
it can not be removed at will before the spell ends except with dispel magic
still uses a pot of bulls strength just for the hell of it.

If something like this is introduced it should not be available in any form for sale at vendors, or as a random drop from chests, or as a clickie on an item, named or random. The only way to use it is to have an arcane cast it. Period.

Like I said, a wizard/sorcerer losing the ability to cast spells is HUGE. a buff that removes that needs to be powerful enough to make the loss to spell casting worth it. but even with this huge buff a wizard/sorcerer that is made to melee will still be far below a melee class of the same level and gear. and i still think that the offensive power could be buffed more but this is what I got so far.


Option 3: reduce spell power, but don't remove it.

Tenser's Transformation
spell level: 6
duration: as rage spell (could easily be any kind of duration from same as haste to one min per caster level)
a +4 enhancement bonus to strength, dexterity and constitution. this bonus improves to +6 at caster level 16 and to +8 at caster level 20 (still just throwing out numbers, feel free to recommend different specifics.)
BAB as Fighter
proficiency with all simple and martial weapons
a +4 natural armor bonus to Armor Class
a +5 competence bonus to Fortitude saves
when this spell is active the caster can not use any metamagics and automatically fails any concentration checks to cast spells when under attack.
magic items of all kinds can still be used normally. but you still fail a concentration check if you try to use them under attack.
this spell can be dismissed at will (not sure how, i like the idea of using remove curse to do it but it could be any way really)

I like the idea of loss of metamagics being the way casting ability is reduced. A caster under the spell can't use quickened reconstruct or negative energy burst in the middle of combat and can't use maximize or empower for spell damage. but they can still run back if they need to cast a spell. and they can cast fine outside of combat. so only offensive spell power is reduced but the caster is not completely crippled.

this third option needs to be stronger then it is now. everything other than the +8 stats and the full BAB is just fluff and not worth the loss of metamagics. And I think that the complete loss of concentration is overkill, but i just wanted to throw that idea out there, loss of metamagics is enough.

**** that took a long time to write.

[Entelech]

Proficiency with all non-Exotic weapons is not a benefit. Any arcane who wants a specific weapon proficiency will either splash a combat class, take a feat, or buy 2000 scrolls of Master's Touch in the Portable Hole. Take it off the table, it just deludes people into thinking the spell is less worthless than it really is.

Either that, or have it grant ALL weapon and armor proficiencies. And Shields and Tower Shields too. That might be worth a tiny bit of utility to certain very specific builds. Maybe.

[jcTharin]

Proficiency with all non-Exotic weapons is not a benefit. Any arcane who wants a specific weapon proficiency will either splash a combat class, take a feat, or buy 2000 scrolls of Master's Touch in the Portable Hole. Take it off the table, it just deludes people into thinking the spell is less worthless than it really is.

Either that, or have it grant ALL weapon and armor proficiencies. And Shields and Tower Shields too. That might be worth a tiny bit of utility to certain very specific builds. Maybe.

I would support not bothering with Proficiency. casters will probably be using masters touch so they don't need to worry about their proficiency leaving them and there would be no lag spike every time the spell is casts and ends.

[Infant]

I'm sorry but I'm not quite sure what you are saying. I'm probably just misreading what you wrote but if you could explain I'd appreciate it.

I can say that granting just full BAB while also removing spell casting would really kill this spell ... though effectively that's all it really does currently as the spell does not stack with anything else.

Aesop

What I tried to say is basically what jcTharin and Monkey_Archer are saying: Remove the non-casting penalty, give full BAB and (maybe) a little bonus like Divine Favor.

If you make to-hit and damage to be calculated from casting stat or give any major stacking bonuses, then fully caster-specced casters will also be able to melee very decently. And nuke. And self-heal. And Instakill and CC. Caster-specced casters are very powerful already.

I would rather see this spell benefit melee-specced casters and UMD users. Full BAB without penalties would be great for this!

Infant

[Aesop]

What I tried to say is basically what jcTharin and Monkey_Archer are saying: Remove the non-casting penalty, give full BAB and (maybe) a little bonus like Divine Favor.

If you make to-hit and damage to be calculated from casting stat or give any major stacking bonuses, then fully caster-specced casters will also be able to melee very decently. And nuke. And self-heal. And Instakill and CC. Caster-specced casters are very powerful already.

I would rather see this spell benefit melee-specced casters and UMD users. Full BAB without penalties would be great for this!

Infant

Ah ok.

I'm a little stuck on the flavor of the spell in general. Its supposed to make the caster Melee capable (though not to a degree that really threatens Melee characters). The question becomes is it going far enough with BAB increase, and is it going too far with simply allowing spell casting.


It is a 6th level spell so in some ways I think it should have something more in it and yet with the flavor of the spell there should be some sort of real penalty.

It keep bringing me back to earlier suggestions.

Bonus
1. BAB
2. Str and Con (not Enhancement but perhaps Morale or Exceptional bonus)
3. AC (perhaps either Dodge or Natural Armor)
4. Martial Weapon Proficiency

Penalty
Spell Casting Penalty (I'm thinking something like metamagic that increases spell costs by 10-20sp)

I'd also make the bonus Progressive so that there is a reason to cast the spell and have a benefit over scroll casting it.


CL 11 +2 (Str, Con, and AC)
CL 15 +4
CL 19 +6

This, to me, seems more like what the spell was intended to be

Aesop

[Infant]

Ah ok.

I'm a little stuck on the flavor of the spell in general. Its supposed to make the caster Melee capable (though not to a degree that really threatens Melee characters). The question becomes is it going far enough with BAB increase, and is it going too far with simply allowing spell casting.


It is a 6th level spell so in some ways I think it should have something more in it and yet with the flavor of the spell there should be some sort of real penalty.

It keep bringing me back to earlier suggestions.

Bonus
1. BAB
2. Str and Con (not Enhancement but perhaps Morale or Exceptional bonus)
3. AC (perhaps either Dodge or Natural Armor)
4. Martial Weapon Proficiency

Penalty
Spell Casting Penalty (I'm thinking something like metamagic that increases spell costs by 10-20sp)

I'd also make the bonus Progressive so that there is a reason to cast the spell and have a benefit over scroll casting it.


CL 11 +2 (Str, Con, and AC)
CL 15 +4
CL 19 +6

This, to me, seems more like what the spell was intended to be

Aesop

IMO, one should decide whether the spell is to be designed for casting-specced casters (Max Int/Cha with all level-ups and corresponding feats) or for melee-specced casters (High base Str, mediocre Int).

I lean towards the second. What casting-specced caster would go in melee in mid-end game? With all the SLA's we have it's no longer necessary (although could be done semi-effectively).

However extra SP cost could ruin it for melee-specced casters. DP clickies could be the better alternative.

+6 Morale or Exceptional (thats +4 over Rage or +3 over Endgame gear, right?) to Str and to Con could be a bit OP.

As for the advantage of spellbook-casting over scroll casting: A decent duration would be already an advantage.

Infant

[Aesop]

IMO, one should decide whether the spell is to be designed for casting-specced casters (Max Int/Cha with all level-ups and corresponding feats) or for melee-specced casters (High base Str, mediocre Int).

I lean towards the second. What casting-specced caster would go in melee in mid-end game? With all the SLA's we have it's no longer necessary (although could be done semi-effectively).

However extra SP cost could ruin it for melee-specced casters. DP clickies could be the better alternative.

+6 Morale or Exceptional (thats +4 over Rage or +3 over Endgame gear, right?) to Str and to Con could be a bit OP.

As for the advantage of spellbook-casting over scroll casting: A decent duration would be already an advantage.

Infant

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

Realize the Strength and Constitution increase that these characters do not have the Barb or Fighter Str or Con bonuses (fighter gain +3 Str from enhancement barbs gain metric tons of bonuses from their own rage and rage enhancements) Not to mention the PrE bonuses that these classes get that the caster will not have any access to.

Duration is not a good balance point for casting vs scrolling because you can always buy more scrolls. Have a stack of 100 scrolls and thats about a full SP pool worth of spells. That's why an actually progressive spell would be more useful towards caster than a static one that only has a slight duration increase (often to the detriment of the caster currently)

Aesop

[Infant]

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

Realize the Strength and Constitution increase that these characters do not have the Barb or Fighter Str or Con bonuses (fighter gain +3 Str from enhancement barbs gain metric tons of bonuses from their own rage and rage enhancements) Not to mention the PrE bonuses that these classes get that the caster will not have any access to.

Duration is not a good balance point for casting vs scrolling because you can always buy more scrolls. Have a stack of 100 scrolls and thats about a full SP pool worth of spells. That's why an actually progressive spell would be more useful towards caster than a static one that only has a slight duration increase (often to the detriment of the caster currently)

Aesop

I am a new player. I still tend to think in categories of non-raid-geared builds. For me that is of course no Torc. 10 SP more on every reconstruct, AoE, Haste. Rage etc. could be a large cost. As mentioned, Divine casters have the same spell without penalties. As for the bonuses to Str and Con -- in the end it should be comparable (also in terms of stacking with other buffs/gear) to Divine Favor's +3 attack/damage.


To the point of scrolls vs. casting: I would really like to see the spell have decent duration (say 3-5 mins) when scroll-cast. For me right now there is nothing more annoying on my bard then to carry a ton of DP clickies and to activate them every minute in combat. Micromanagement is boring and not challenging. Slightly progressing bonuses, extendability and longer duration seems a good reason to keep that spell in my spellbook.

Infant

[zukt]

I agree it would be for Melee Specs but I do not think a small SP increase would totally kill it. Especially with things like Torc and CO gaining you SP when you get hit. It would just make a balancing point.

It would totally kill it. Speaking as someone with several melee casters with torc and CO. The only builds that would use this are casters that only use spells for buffs, and then rarely, as it requires at least 11 casting levels where you start using actual caster spells.

This suggestion is both silly and painful. You would have groups where people start yelling at the caster for messing around with Tenser's depleting their sp pool so they can do something they're already not very good at 1/3rd as well as an actual melee, and thats if they actually have a few combat feats.

[Aesop]

It would totally kill it. Speaking as someone with several melee casters with torc and CO. The only builds that would use this are casters that only use spells for buffs, and then rarely, as it requires at least 11 casting levels where you start using actual caster spells.

This suggestion is both silly and painful. You would have groups where people start yelling at the caster for messing around with Tenser's depleting their sp pool so they can do something they're already not very good at 1/3rd as well as an actual melee, and thats if they actually have a few combat feats.

My suggestion was as opposed to the suggestion to DOUBLE SP COSTS which is what the original OP says.

If 10 SP per spell extra on a character that has made a CHOICE to cast a spell so that they can Melee some seems crazy high to you... what do you think of the current spell not allowing you to cast at all?


The spell is kinda placed there for something akin to a niche build melee caster a'la spell sword and not for the primary caster types.

What would you prefer? No casting spells while active, double spell point costs for spells, or +10sp per spell...

Personally to maintain a hint of the spells flavor I don't see the devs removing the casting restriction outright

Aesop

[jcTharin]

My suggestion was as opposed to the suggestion to DOUBLE SP COSTS which is what the original OP says.

If 10 SP per spell extra on a character that has made a CHOICE to cast a spell so that they can Melee some seems crazy high to you... what do you think of the current spell not allowing you to cast at all?


The spell is kinda placed there for something akin to a niche build melee caster a'la spell sword and not for the primary caster types.

What would you prefer? No casting spells while active, double spell point costs for spells, or +10sp per spell...

Personally to maintain a hint of the spells flavor I don't see the devs removing the casting restriction outright

Aesop

the original problem is still there though. If there is any penalty to spells from the spell almost all melee arcanes will still use DP clickies instead.