Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Zerkul]

I like the idea of buffing up the spell. But i think there's another better solution: I think arcane spellcaster's spells that enables melees should be inferior to cleric ones of the same level (Divine Power [5] > Tenser's Transformation [6]).

... Solution: introduce a level 8 or 9 spell that works like Tenser's Trasformation but with better benefits. This avoids the massive scrolling from UMD classes of a powered up spell.




Example:

Tenser's Hezrou Channeling
Trasmutation 8
Duration: like rage spell (dismissable)

You summon an Hezrou to posses your body, gaining infernal power, greatly improving your melee prowess but you have a slight chance of loose control to the possesing entity. During the spell duration, each minute you have to make a will save against a DC of ?? or be stunned for 3-6 seconds. Your BAB increases to the one of a fighter of your class level, you gain profane bonus to strength (+8) and constitution (+4), a natural armor bonus of (+4), as well as a DR ??/ Good. Casting spells becomes more difficult: you suffer an extra arcane spell failure (let's say 20%) while possesed.






Just an idea.

[Crystalizer]

... I think arcane spellcaster's spells that enables melees should be inferior to cleric ones of the same level (Divine Power [5] > Tenser's Transformation [6])...

why ?
arcanes have melee capability spells that divines don't : master's touch, tenser are both designed to be able to turn arcanes into low dps melee characters, this is part of d&d.

the main problem here is that tenser doesn't copy/paste fine from p&p, and actually is a useless spell in ddo.

anyhow ddo designers should try to make every single ddo feature useful, otherwise you just choose what is useful and what is not, not long to read a template and apply it straight forward while leveling as the overall community demonstrates it crystal clear since launch.

turning useless features into useful ones is a way to enhance the overall ddo quality, not the opposite, and i doubt that anyone would refuse to enhance its own gaming experience. don't misunderstand it, any class should receive that work to make it even more enjoyable, including melee ones. and this is what happens since start, classes tend to see their specializations (or versatility) increased.

all in all i find that discussion infinitely more constructive than all these whines for constant nerfs from frustrated players who only want the others to get below them. for a pve oriented game, all that tr/grind/farm fest is turning ddo into an indirect pvp game where being better than others becomes a standard. and only time spent in game impacts on that aspect.

[Stillwaters]

I know this suggestion may have already occurred to people but why not instead of using the SP increasing mechanic of Combat expertise make it a true FORM like the PALEMASTERS forms (wraith/vamp etc), even continue to stack as it currently would.

You could toggle it on and off like you can with those abilities, that way if you want to continue casting (or get griefed by a chaosorb) you can toggle it back off again, but if you are truly out of SP you can get more milage out of it via its semiperm duration.
Tweaking its bonus's at same time is probably not needed - i mean +6 str from DP isnt as nice as +4 to 3 stats and some AC, and most endgame players wouldnt benefit from more than the +to-hit with either spell. Tho switching out the AC for some natural DR wouldnt go astray.

(don't add the stupid +100x light damage mechanic tho - that would be mean)

and for the love of all holy - dont let it become another clicky like DP, something so useful that everyone almost REQUIRES one to be effective. Tho scroll usage would give UMD guys an edge

/signed for switchoff, not for casting in form

[zukt]

Seriously, anyone that thinks that tenser's is going to be a problem if it allows spellcasting doesn't understand arcanes. At 32 str, my wizard does like 1/3rd the dps of a melee with divine power and power attack on on a single target at best. At that rate he's way better off just hitting the wail button and blast spells unless he's waiting for a cooldown or seriously spell point constrained.

Letting tensers work with spellcasting makes specialized battlecaster builds marginally competitive without having a ton of divine power clickies. It doesn't make an arcane a melee anymore than a cleric becomes a melee casting divine power. If sp cost double while tensers were up, no one would still take it. There's no reason for this spell to be so useless, especially taking up a valuable 6th level slot and providing some more utility for the now undervalued extend meta.

[Seikojin]

Despite all the good ideas for the spell, I still think making it unable to cast while in, with stacking buffs, is exactly what it should be. My fighters next life is going to be a spellsword like build. It would help me a ton to have a lvl 6 spell to buff my weak stats. LOL

[LunaCee]

Easy solution, really.

Doesn't lock spell casting down (instead its like a metamagic cost of +25 per spell), but instead merely makes your melee capabilities dependant upon your INT or CHA score, whichever is higher (Those being +dmg and +to hit). The only type of UMD user that would universally benefit would be caster bards. The other would be some very unusual rogue builds. (Really, who builds a rogue with max INT or CHA that isn't using rogue as a splash for a caster?)

[Angelus_dead]

Doesn't lock spell casting down (instead its like a metamagic cost of +25 per spell), but instead merely makes your melee capabilities dependant upon your INT or CHA score, whichever is higher (Those being +dmg and +to hit).

That would be really bad. Giving Wizards a +20 to melee attack and damage rolls is exactly the opposite of what game balance needs.

Really, who builds a rogue with max INT or CHA that isn't using rogue as a splash for a caster?)

Someone in a game with a spell that allows intelligence or charisma to control your melee power.

[Aesop]

Easy solution, really.

Doesn't lock spell casting down (instead its like a metamagic cost of +25 per spell), but instead merely makes your melee capabilities dependant upon your INT or CHA score, whichever is higher (Those being +dmg and +to hit). The only type of UMD user that would universally benefit would be caster bards. The other would be some very unusual rogue builds. (Really, who builds a rogue with max INT or CHA that isn't using rogue as a splash for a caster?)

Hmm interesting thought.

So let's say a 40Int Wizard cast this spell.

Suddenly instead of swinging their melee weapon around with a 14 strength they'd use their Int Stat as their Attack and Damage Stat... That's a good start

I think though that there is the issue with it forcing between just Int and Cha... the reason I say that is the Spellsword builds. They are the most likely to use this effect and they are also more likely to have lower Int/Cha scores relative to their Str Scores.

I personally don't have issue with UMD users benefiting from this spell

so maybe the spell would grant no real stat buffs but instead grant combat specific buffs


1. BAB equals character level
2. Attack and Damage Stat = Casting Stat (though maybe leave the option of Str if higher)
3. 5 hp/caster level
4. +4 competence bonus to Fort saves
5. Some sort of AC bonus maybe Natural Armor or perhaps even Dodge (though I'm hesitant on Dodge). If you really wanted it to be powerful make it similar to the Monk Wis Bonus only with the Casting stat (yeah right that'd happen )
6. Proficiency with All Martial Weapons
7. No spellcasting


This gets rid of the useless Enhancement Bonuses to Stats and makes the character more useful and survivable in melee combat which is the point of the spell

[Angelus_dead]

1. BAB equals character level
2. Attack and Damage Stat = Casting Stat (though maybe leave the option of Str if higher)

Can you give a reason why a game developer might want Wizards and Sorcerers to have abilities like that?

[Aesop]

Can you give a reason why a game developer might want Wizards and Sorcerers to have abilities like that?

Given the overall nature of the spell itself I'd say that they want to give the caster character an offensively geared spell that is designed to make them into a reasonable combat character.

Seems alright as it still does not add up to the ability of the full melee character... ie combat form feats (TWF THF etc), Power Attack, IC or others.

It would make them reasonably passable without negating the (though some would argue muted) role of a melee character.

Regardless of these benefits a Caster character while not being completely useless in melee combat any more would not harm the role of the dedicated melee characters.

It seems the intention of the spell but not the current outcome of the spell

Aesop

[zukt]

That would be really bad. Giving Wizards a +20 to melee attack and damage rolls is exactly the opposite of what game balance needs.

My wizard has an int of 42 and a strength of 32. This would give him +5 attack and damage, and still he would have about 1/3rd the dps against single targets as a dedicated melee, and thats with power attack and improved crit. The supporting feats all go into casting. Being able to act like 1/3rd of a person while mobs are webbed and held is nice, but not exactly unbalancing. It's not, say, firewall.

Just get rid of the whole 'can't cast spells' nonsense with Tenser's. Make it a two point enhancement if it makes people crazy. You won't have arcanes be melee anymore than divines. And honestly, a melee arcane is probably a lot more fun for other melees to have in the party. Haste and rage are always up, and there's a priority on webs and holds, making it easier for melees to do what they do, hit stuff.

Now if I can't actually hit the mobs, I'm more likely to just go full out instakill and blast and not care about melee's at all, except to see if I can finger that mob that the barbarian almost has dead.

If Tensers' made spellcasting work, but twice as expensive, I would never use it. I'd still use divine power clickies. It would be too restrictive except for very specific builds.

If Tenser's worked exactly as divine power, I would use it, and maybe 1 out of 10 other arcanes. Its in a very popular spell slot, and most arcanes dump their strength. You would notice exactly no new balance issues because we're using divine power clickies already and have been for years, and still we aren't going to contribute more than a token amount to melee damage.

If Tenser's worked with a 2 point enhancement, say arcane knight, I would use it, and maybe 1 out of 20 other arcanes. Enhancement lines are pricy when your real damage comes from spells.

Perhaps another option would be a specific item or epic item that when worn or wielded allows casting while in Tenser's. If it was in the right slot and offered some other options, I might farm for it. Slots are expensive.

But as is Tenser's is just beyond useless. Just having to carry around a stack of bulls strength potions should be enough hassle without not being able to cast while its up.

[Angelus_dead]

Regardless of these benefits a Caster character while not being completely useless in melee combat any more would not harm the role of the dedicated melee characters.

What makes you say that giving Wizards and Sorcerers a giant boost at performing the abilities of melee classes would not harm the role of dedicated melee characters?

My wizard has an int of 42 and a strength of 32.

Your Wizard has abnormally high strength, giving you a melee power that's well above regular Wizards. The proposed change to which I was replying would give all Wizards the potential for better melee stats than you have now, obsoleting the build sacrifices you made.

Just get rid of the whole 'can't cast spells' nonsense with Tenser's.
...
If Tenser's worked exactly as divine power, I would use it, and maybe 1 out of 10 other arcanes.

Yes, something like that would be the simplest approach and close to the best. It would make the spell sane, without really getting into role infringment or making the lot of melee characters worse than it is now. It'd just be a convenience for Wizards and Sorcerers who like to melee but don't like juggling seven Bracers of Divine Power.

[Aesop]

What makes you say that giving Wizards and Sorcerers a giant boost at performing the abilities of melee classes would not harm the role of dedicated melee characters?

Are you saying that a Wizard who's Int caps out at about 45 has no combat related feats and little in the way of gear geared towards melee combat would suddenly infringe upon the Raging Barbarian with an 80 strength, power attack, improve critical and all the gear to go with it not to mention a PrE line designed to make them a wrecking ball, because they could actually hit the broad side of a barn now?

Would you prefer it to be just to hit Instead? I mean the spell is supposed to help make the wizard "useful" in melee combat and it certainly doesn't do that currently. Allowing it to let people cast spells while active (which I wouldn't particularly mind) would be contrary to the description of the spell does not actually improve the intended function of the spell. Really it is the function of the spell that is in question.

Aesop

[Infant]

Are you saying that a Wizard who's Int caps out at about 45 has no combat related feats and little in the way of gear geared towards melee combat would suddenly infringe upon the Raging Barbarian with an 80 strength, power attack, improve critical and all the gear to go with it not to mention a PrE line designed to make them a wrecking ball, because they could actually hit the broad side of a barn now?
Aesop

I rather think about an arcane with melee feats specced for melee (Tukaw-like or something). Who all of a sudden has very solid saves, profane (or whatever stacking) bonuses to Con, Str and to hit, full BAB, excellent Quickened self-healing and very high nuking potential with DoTs and other no-save AoE spells. Right now, Tukaw is all that but without the stacking bonuses and with a ton of DP clickies to manage.

I would suggest just make the spell full BAB and not much else. Also make it decent duration and available in scroll form, no clickies. Such that you have to make an investment (UMD) to use it and gain decent benefit. This way melee arcane characters become more viable and we get rid of the annoying clickie-management for rogues and bards (it's not challenging -- just annoying and inventory-filling).

Infant

[Uska]

Nvm necro

[Angelus_dead]

I mean the spell is supposed to help make the wizard "useful" in melee combat and it certainly doesn't do that currently.

You are apparently taking it as a given that it would be good for DDO's Wizards and Sorcerers to have a spell to make them useful in melee combat. That emphatically has not been justified.

[phum]

You are apparently taking it as a given that it would be good for DDO's Wizards and Sorcerers to have a spell to make them useful in melee combat. That emphatically has not been justified.

well.. dp clickies do some of it now. But you are right, simply putting int/cha for attack and dmg is... Well. Like making casters even more jack of all trades and masters of many. While melees still resume as "masters" of melee, proficient of ranged and jack of $%^&, or something like that. That's a bit overemphasized, but the fun factor is tremendous. And reduces viable build options/required sacrifices.. ~= fun...^^

I kinda like the combat expertise idea tho...

[Xyfiel]

You are apparently taking it as a given that it would be good for DDO's Wizards and Sorcerers to have a spell to make them useful in melee combat. That emphatically has not been justified.

Wrong. Just because you justify to yourself doesn't make it unjustified. They are already useful in melee combat if you build that way. They have pros and cons compared to real melees, just like any build choices. Giving wiz/sorcs a spell to make them more useful won't suddenly make them equal to real melee, nor remove the option to be all caster spec. The spell already exists, it just needs altered. Some of us enjoy playing battlemages, doesn't make them unjustified if they are not uber tank/dps/healz/instakill cookie cutter fotm build.

[FooWonk]

I liked to see Tenser's amped up to fit DDO better. Something along the lines of:

Duration: 30 seconds + 6 seconds/level
Spell point cost: 15 SP

You gain an enhancement bonus to strength equal to DC.
You gain an enhancement bonus to constitution equal to DC/2.
You gain +4 natural armor bonus.
You gain moderate fortification.
Your base attack bonus equals your character level.

Your primary casting stat is reduced by the DC of the spell.
You gain +2 to your primary casting stat for each level of spell focus transmutation.

-----======-----=======-----======-----

IMO, this would fit the original spirit of Tenser's (allow a caster to be capable of melee) to the very powerful DDO world. It allows an opportunity for casting (with enhancement items & exceptional bonuses alone can cast 9th level spells).

With the impact to their SP pool (caused by losing primary stat) and the loss of their DC's, casters won't be in Tenser's all the time. The spell would become an excellent choice for low SP situations, adding a lot more fun than casters get waiting for SLA timers when down to echoes of power.

Corrections:
1.) DC should be primary casting ability

[weewoo0]

I personally don't have issue with UMD users benefiting from this spell

so maybe the spell would grant no real stat buffs but instead grant combat specific buffs


1. BAB equals character level
2. Attack and Damage Stat = Casting Stat (though maybe leave the option of Str if higher)
5. Some sort of AC bonus maybe Natural Armor or perhaps even Dodge (though I'm hesitant on Dodge). If you really wanted it to be powerful make it similar to the Monk Wis Bonus only with the Casting stat (yeah right that'd happen )
6. Proficiency with All Martial Weapons
7. No spellcasting

so a 40 cha paladin(oh right 18 base +3 enh +1 human +4 tome +7 item +1 litany +3 exc+5 levelups = 42 not 40) w/ dm 4 and tenser's scrolls ftw? they'd have this for epic cbs and the epic dynastic falcattas would work all on their own....

that'd be fun