Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Wizzly_Bear]

This game is full of deviations I approve of - physics checks instead of touch AC, spell points, heroic durability... You cannot carbon copy a table top game to an MMO. On this we are all agreed. There's a difference between "conversion" like that and simple reversal of the intent of something like Tenser's.

Anyway, enough repitition of this point. Let's move on to game balance. Do YOU think it is balanced for a caster to be able to, at will, become a full BAB melee* proficient with all martial weapons while still able to cast spells? Or would the game end up as melee WF sorcs on-line?

*obviously, all these DP clickies w/o a caster level have the same game balance problem..

Well put.
+1

[Aspenor]

Eh? What tech is this?

The tech that allows you to cast spells in Combat Expertise with double SP cost.

[Aspenor]

This game is full of deviations I approve of - physics checks instead of touch AC, spell points, heroic durability... You cannot carbon copy a table top game to an MMO. On this we are all agreed. There's a difference between "conversion" like that and simple reversal of the intent of something like Tenser's.

Anyway, enough repitition of this point. Let's move on to game balance. Do YOU think it is balanced for a caster to be able to, at will, become a full BAB melee* proficient with all martial weapons while still able to cast spells? Or would the game end up as melee WF sorcs on-line?

*obviously, all these DP clickies w/o a caster level have the same game balance problem..

Well put.
+1

Right, because a full caster (or multiclass, for that matter) with a weapon will be able to deal anywhere near the DPS of a class that has powerful enhancements for it, like Frenzied Bezerker, Kensai, or Exalted Smite.

Oh and please do add me if you want, I haven't seen an insightful comment on this matter, just naysaying and whining about insults. You know you can't win a debate on this matter, so you won't even try.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Right, because a full caster (or multiclass, for that matter) with a weapon will be able to deal anywhere near the DPS of a class that has powerful enhancements for it, like Frenzied Bezerker, Kensai, or Exalted Smite.

Not all melee effectiveness comes from dps. Stunning, stat damage, paralyzing, vorpal, et cetera. You know this.

[Gol]

The tech that allows you to cast spells in Combat Expertise with double SP cost.

Ah. I'd rather be prevented from wasting SP, myself. I'd prefer to be able to dismiss the buff and not be able to cast at all until you dismiss it.

I don't carry TT now, and I still won't if it costs double SP. Barbs can dismiss rage, CE can be turned off, etc - why can't we just dismiss TT? If I were to play with loading TT, I can say for sure that my scroll usage would increase, though. I'd avoid using SP when TT was active wherever possible.

I'd also like to see them fix spell durations when scroll-casting, too, if they add this. Per PnP rules, the big benefit of scrolls (vs wands) is that you get to use your caster level for the spell duration, not the minimum level required for the spell.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Ah. I'd rather be prevented from wasting SP, myself. I'd prefer to be able to dismiss the buff and not be able to cast at all until you dismiss it.

I don't carry TT now, and I still won't if it costs double SP. Barbs can dismiss rage, CE can be turned off, etc - why can't we just dismiss TT? If I were to play with loading TT, I can say for sure that my scroll usage would increase, though. I'd avoid using SP when TT was active wherever possible.

I'd also like to see them fix spell durations when scroll-casting, too, if they add this. Per PnP rules, the big benefit of scrolls (vs wands) is that you get to use your caster level for the spell duration, not the minimum level required for the spell.

That brings up an important point that I haven't seen mentioned yet - if you can cast while TT, then who cares if its double sps...you could just use scrolls.

[Gol]

That brings up an important point that I haven't seen mentioned yet - if you can cast while TT, then who cares if its double sps...you could just use scrolls.

Sorta my point. I'd just prefer they fix scroll durations (something I've been asking about for years) while they're at it.

[Uska]

Hmm on the right track there something like that maybe slightly higher cost then that since it does go against pnp but your right as the spell is now its useless

[Wizzly_Bear]

Sorta my point. I'd just prefer they fix scroll durations (something I've been asking about for years) while they're at it.

That would be nice too.

[Dingdongtudelu]

It doesn't have to be an extreme scenario for me, but already modifying the *enhancement* boni to stats into something else would be fantastic. As it is now, you already get 3/4 of what the spell grants, in item boni.

Arcane fighterbuilds currently have to resort to carrying a big collection of DP clickies in their backpack, effectively making them melee builds, with the added hassle of constantly having to swap items. This swapping does not make the character any less effective, it just makes it more cumbersome to play, and less fun in general. It would make much more sense to have arcane casters use a spell designed for a scenario like this, instead of using items with divine spells on them.

I'd be thrilled at seeing an arcane spell that raises BAB to fighter level, and added unique stat modifiers, at the cost of *not casting any spells*. At fear of joining the aggressive conversation two people had here, I do not support changing core spell rules. I do however support adapting them to suit the nature of the beast, being MMO. Having the option to turn TT off would suit this perfectly, in my humble opinion. It would be a viable spell to use and at the same time would follow the original design of the spell. The toggle option would just be to make it more MMO-y. It would also make its behaviour different from what divine power does. I fear for making arcane duplicates of divine spells. Each category has its own flavor, I would like to keep seeing that exist.

D.

[LunaCee]

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.

Sorry, scrolls can be MADE at any valid caster level, but once made they only cast the spell at the caster level they were made for. It is staffs that let the user use their own caster level in place of that of the item. Now you would have a valid complaint though about the spell DC's from items in general in the game right now.

[sir_odin]

When the PrE was first intoduced i was hoping that somewhere there would be a line for war/battle mage. Increasing each tier with access to more spells to be cast in tenser.
this would keep people not exploiting clickies and scroll, but use AP to make this spell usable.

2nd Divine clickies whould top out on the caster level of the spell. Example: divine power clicky with caster lvl 7 = 'will increase your base attack up to 7.' if you have more than BaB 7, only the Strenght potion of the spell will apply.

i know alot of 3/4 classes will scream for loosing block DR and to hit bonus. but i think this is onyl fair.

[Gol]

Sorry, scrolls can be MADE at any valid caster level, but once made they only cast the spell at the caster level they were made for. It is staffs that let the user use their own caster level in place of that of the item. Now you would have a valid complaint though about the spell DC's from items in general in the game right now.

I found the snippet on d20srd.org regarding scrolls. It confirms your conclusion.

/sigh. Oh well.

[Gol]

2nd Divine clickies whould top out on the caster level of the spell. Example: divine power clicky with caster lvl 7 = 'will increase your base attack up to 7.' if you have more than BaB 7, only the Strenght potion of the spell will apply.

While I get your point, the spell is intended to work differently.

You become a virtual fighting machine—stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items.

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.

(emphasis added)

[moorewr]

While I get your point, the spell is intended to work differently.


(emphasis added)

Of course, you could add a new spell - call it "Aspenor's Transformation" -that gave you a smaller BAB boost and let you cast spells while it was active.

[sir_odin]

While I get your point, the spell is intended to work differently.

thats not Divine power, but Tenser Transformation

Divine Power
Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

* should only last 7*6s = 56s
** scrolls and clickes of divine power should be ultra rare in pnp. And would most likely be patron resticted, depending on the DM.
*** ddo and pnp is miles apart. light years with up5.

just make TT usable and i'm happy

[Aspenor]

The easy balance for the "just use scrolls" argument is disallowing SCROLL AND ITEM use, but not spells from your SP pool.

As far as the "dismiss" mechanic, that would not make the spell much more useful than it is currently. If you have to dismiss the spell every time you wish to cast, that would mean dismissing and re-casting possibly multiple times in a minute. There would be no point to changing over to TT from Divine Power, none at all.

[Aspenor]

Not all melee effectiveness comes from dps. Stunning, stat damage, paralyzing, vorpal, et cetera. You know this.

I haven't used stat damagers wince the W/P nerf, and haven't used a paralyzer or a vorpal in quite a long time either. With coming update 5, stunning won't be very useful either since it will have a save. Stunning blow or stunning fist will be completely unaffected by TT, as a caster/melee won't have a high enough DC to waste their time using it. Paralyzers are only useful in a small portion of quests, like Gianthold, and this change won't make paralyzers any more useful than they already are.

[Borror0]

The easy balance for the "just use scrolls" argument is disallowing SCROLL AND ITEM use, but not spells from your SP pool.

Wait, when did we conclude that it was unbalancing to use items and scrolls? I don't think it would be.

[Aspenor]

Wait, when did we conclude that it was unbalancing to use items and scrolls? I don't think it would be.

No, I don't think it would be, personally. The reduced CL, time spent swapping, and comparative power level to actual spells from SP would not make it beneficial to swap.