Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Seikojin]

I don't like the double sp while in that mode. As cool as it sounds, the fact that it is enhancement bonuses is what sucks. Having it infernal or something that can stack is of more importance to me. No one uses that spell because you can out gear it at the same level.

[Monkey_Archer]

Hmmm thread necro... oh well the topic is still relevant...

As I see it, there are 3 ways to make tensors a viable spell

1) Keep the casting restriction, but add large stacking bonuses that can at least come close to comparing with other melee classes at the same level (level 11-12). By level 12 most melee classes have the approximate equivalent to +10-20 damage. Rangers have 6 FE, 3 rams, +10% offhand.... fighters have 4 weapon spec, 2 kensai, powersurge and haste boosts.... barbarians have 15+ damage with PA/rage/frenzy. If the caster is going to give up their main ability of casting spells, and essentially just play like another melee class, they should at least be somewhat comparable.

I'd propose something in the order of +6 stacking str/con and +6 stacking damage in this case. Yes, that seems powerful but its still only about half of what a barb gets at the same level.

2) As per the OP's suggestion, double sp costs while tensors is active. This at least doesn't completely take away the casters main ability, and therefore doesn't require a massive benefit to be viable. There would still need to be some sort of stacking benefit however, since this version would be competing with DP clickies and if tensors doesn't add any benefit over DP clickies its never going to be viable if it includes any sort of casting restriction.
I'd like this to be somewhat comparable to having divine favor and divine power active... perhaps +4 stacking str/con and a +3 luck bonus to hit and damage (non stacking with divine favor).


3) Remove the casting restriction entirely, and leave the bonuses as non-stacking. This would essentially make it a slightly better version of divine power.


Personally, I like option 2 the best, but the problem with both suggestions is the availability of scrolls usable by UMD characters. I think the best way to deal with that would be to make the bonuses based off the number of wizard/sorc levels (similar to the way monk strikes are based on monk level) as opposed to caster level (which would be included on a scroll). Perhaps +1 stacking str/con/hit/damage per 5 wizard/sorc levels so a scroll would only give a +1 bonus, but cast by a level 11/12 wiz/sorc it would start at +3.

[sirdanile]

Wrong. The spell, as written in 3.5, was stupid. It should be improved here. No wizard or sorcerer in their right mind would ever waste a spell or action casting Tenser's, and if they did do so they were a moron.

The spell should deviate from the RAW of 3.5 and allow spellcasting, at cost.

When I saw the A as the first letter of your name and read the first word of your post I automatically assumed you were Angelus_Dead, however I did a double take and realized it was you.

Anywhoo back on topic I like this suggestion, though an entire spell revision would be much better.

[Tirisha]

This has probably been said already but you'd still be much better off just carrying Divine Power clickies. I like the Idea of trying to make the spell useful though. I'd recommend changing the STR, DEX and CON bonuses to Profane as well as the OPs proposed change.

[Phidius]

Hmmm thread necro... oh well the topic is still relevant...

As I see it, there are 3 ways to make tensors a viable spell

...

I like option 2 myself, but with the caveat that the melee bonuses have to be pretty hot... especially if the spell point cost is doubled after meta-magics.

For example, the +3/+3 luck should be an arcane bonus and stack with everything.

Otherwise, I'd prefer #3.

...
Personally, I like option 2 the best, but the problem with both suggestions is the availability of scrolls usable by UMD characters. I think the best way to deal with that would be to make the bonuses based off the number of wizard/sorc levels (similar to the way monk strikes are based on monk level) as opposed to caster level (which would be included on a scroll). Perhaps +1 stacking str/con/hit/damage per 5 wizard/sorc levels so a scroll would only give a +1 bonus, but cast by a level 11/12 wiz/sorc it would start at +3.

I'd rather they just pull the scrolls from the vendor, but leave them in chests. I think +1/5 arcane levels is a good idea, too.

Can you imagine the excitement if we log in after the next patch, and find that the vendors are no longer selling the scrolls?

[Arovin]

Can you imagine the excitement if we log in after the next patch, and find that the vendors are no longer selling the scrolls?

What you mean is, our Rogues and Bards should stock up now!

[shores11]

Suggesting this here because of the beta agreement. Now that the tech is in place, please make Tenser's Transformation work like Combat Expertise. Double spell point usage while the spell is active. This will make the spell actually have a use, as opposed to being a hindrance the way it is now.

/not signed

Unless it aligns with what it does in D&D pen and paper. As much as possible all spell like abilities, feats, ehancements, etc... need to mirror D&D. All attempts by the developers (and players really) to stray from what D&D rule set is should be avoide where possible.

Please do not grant players some over uber abilities not in alignment with D&D just because they ask or demand it. Forgive them D&D founders because they know not what they ask.

[Aesop]

/not signed

Unless it aligns with what it does in D&D pen and paper. As much as possible all spell like abilities, feats, ehancements, etc... need to mirror D&D. All attempts by the developers (and players really) to stray from what D&D rule set is should be avoide where possible.

Please do not grant players some over uber abilities not in alignment with D&D just because they ask or demand it. Forgive them D&D founders because they know not what they ask.

Do you understand the concerns presented here?

In DDO the benefits of this spell do not measure up with its spell level. The benefits do not actually have relevance at the level in which the spell becomes available even.

This is why people want it changed. Divine Power is a much better spell and its lower level.

Aesop

[jcTharin]

/not signed

Unless it aligns with what it does in D&D pen and paper. As much as possible all spell like abilities, feats, ehancements, etc... need to mirror D&D. All attempts by the developers (and players really) to stray from what D&D rule set is should be avoide where possible.

Please do not grant players some over uber abilities not in alignment with D&D just because they ask or demand it. Forgive them D&D founders because they know not what they ask.

as is the spell hurts much more than it helps.

Could you imagine how effective Tenser's transformation would be as an offensive spell is we could cast on enemy casters?

[SableShadow]

Could you imagine how effective Tenser's transformation would be as an offensive spell is we could cast on enemy casters?

Point. Game. Match.

[Monkey_Archer]

/not signed

Unless it aligns with what it does in D&D pen and paper. As much as possible all spell like abilities, feats, ehancements, etc... need to mirror D&D. All attempts by the developers (and players really) to stray from what D&D rule set is should be avoide where possible.

Please do not grant players some over uber abilities not in alignment with D&D just because they ask or demand it. Forgive them D&D founders because they know not what they ask.

Yes please! I'd love tensors to do exactly what it did in 2.5

Double my wizard's hp (to over 1000) and give +4 stacking ac and a stacking +2 to hit and damage (which, translated as closely as possible to DDO would be roughly +10 to hit and damage)....

[Crystalizer]

i do sign for turning tenser into a usable spell
since my main is a battlesorcerer, i use a lot divine power clickies
dp clickies duration was extended a bit, which helps
but this is true that battle arcanes didn't receive much love with tenser
now i can hear already screaming many players about how arcanes are so much overpowered compared to others

i don't care much about the sp cost, with conc opp/torc we can reload mana already and mana pots too
profane boost to str/con seems good or another way to boost our dps/tohit, ac and fortitude saves i don't care, also a boost to hp would be great

also i would suggest a pre specific to battle arcanes, and maybe restrict to battle arcanes an access to a usable tenser or change the name of the spell or turn it into an enhancement but not a spell so beholders won't slow us that much

most important is a boost to tohit/dps

[Aesop]

as is the spell hurts much more than it helps.

Could you imagine how effective Tenser's transformation would be as an offensive spell is we could cast on enemy casters?

LOL yep true

[Gauthaag]

Big NO

there s really no reason to equalize the arcanes with melee classes.

ofc from munkin view the idea is likeable, but arguments for it are really poor. If it will be changed the way mostly presented, ie doublecost spellcasting and stackable (ie profane or other bonus), situatio is goin to look like this: DP clickie + tenser...heh, and who is melee now?

[voodoogroves]

Big NO

there s really no reason to equalize the arcanes with melee classes.

ofc from munkin view the idea is likeable, but arguments for it are really poor. If it will be changed the way mostly presented, ie doublecost spellcasting and stackable (ie profane or other bonus), situatio is goin to look like this: DP clickie + tenser...heh, and who is melee now?

There's nothing a fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk, paladin get that a DP clicky completely duplicates or overshadows ... is that part of what you're trying to say?

DP does not turn anyone with a clicky into the same kind of beast in melee as a capped melee class. At all.

[Gauthaag]

There's nothing a fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk, paladin get that a DP clicky completely duplicates or overshadows ... is that part of what you're trying to say?

DP does not turn anyone with a clicky into the same kind of beast in melee as a capped melee class. At all.

what? both spells gives the best BAB, if made cumulative i will give +10 str, +4 dex, con, +5 nat armor and fort saves, and with another suggestion with full spellcasting power.....probably no better in melee than top notch horc barb but no Beast? lol

NO again ... diversity of classes is what i like on DnD

[voodoogroves]

what? both spells gives the best BAB, if made cumulative i will give +10 str, +4 dex, con, +5 nat armor and fort saves, and with another suggestion with full spellcasting power.....probably no better in melee than top notch horc barb but no Beast? lol

NO again ... diversity of classes is what i like on DnD

So are you saying "no" to any changes or just to a combination of changes that lets everything in the world stack?

I'm not clear on what you're objecting to; it seems to me you're saying "make no changes because if you make all the worst changes possible it will be bad"

[Gauthaag]

So are you saying "no" to any changes or just to a combination of changes that lets everything in the world stack?

I'm not clear on what you're objecting to; it seems to me you're saying "make no changes because if you make all the worst changes possible it will be bad"

actually no to any changes theres no reason (except the ability to dismiss tenser)

[voodoogroves]

actually no to any changes theres no reason (except the ability to dismiss tenser)

I'd suggest we remove the spell as it is has no use currently ...

[phum]

I'd suggest we remove the spell as it is has no use currently ...

Currently it's the worst debuff chaos spheres can give. Wonder, if any1 uses it for griefing..

The spell definitely could use buffing. OP is fine. I'd switch the double sp cost with the also presented static cost of e.g. 20 sp or just remove the useless bab and stat bonuses and any additional casting penalty. The result would be just masters touch and combat expertise for high umd builds and arcanes.

Regarding melee/caster balance, there are much heavier issues about it and changing tenser as per pretty much any of the suggestions in this thread wouldn't affect it much at all.

anyway, /signed