Make Tenser's Transformation = Combat Expertise

[Roziel_Longblade]

Tensers is such a short duration spell that I dont see getting a lot of mileage out of being able to cancel it. It may be convenient but not a game breaker. As for scrolls somehow being overpowered with TT, if that were the case then people would look for UMD rogues rather than casters when they need magic.

We really are left with 2 options concerning Tensers:
improve the spell performance and let it continue preventing spell casting
OR
allow casting and other magic use while the spell is active.

I personally feel a performance increase is closest to the spirit of the spell but casting while it active is a solid second option.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Only thing I really have to add to this is - the more useful spells the better. I always scribed every spell for my wizards, but only used ~60% of them, and at least 20% I never used (except for testing).

[Tyrande]

[...]

Anyway, enough repitition of this point. Let's move on to game balance. Do YOU think it is balanced for a caster to be able to, at will, become a full BAB melee* proficient with all martial weapons while still able to cast spells? Or would the game end up as melee WF sorcs on-line?

*obviously, all these DP clickies w/o a caster level have the same game balance problem..

It is balanced as transformed to a full BAB melee which still doesn't have the STR, CON, toughness, bonus feats of a fighter melee, or the rages of a barbarian.

Also, there is the Eldritch Knight PrC to simulate to, which has a full BAB.

[Aspenor]

It is balanced as transformed to a full BAB melee which still doesn't have the STR, CON, toughness, bonus feats of a fighter melee, or the rages of a barbarian.

Also, there is the Eldritch Knight PrC to simulate to, which has a full BAB.

Also, most of the secondary benefits of the spell will not affect anybody. +4 enhancement bonuses are worse than the +6's everybody wears. Casters already have master's touch, which gives weapon proficiencies from shrine to shrine with a single cast. The +4 enhancement bonus to natural armor is easily replicated with a potion, or surpassed by a ranger (and no melee arcane cares about AC, anyway). +5 to fort saves is okay, but hardly game-breaking.

The only major benefit of casting it would be the BAB increase, offering better attack speed and attacks, which is not really worth a level 6 spell slot (but I'd be okay with it occupying one) to most characters (level 6 spells are very, very thin, several useful ones at that level).

I would go so far as to say that you *should* change the bonuses to profane, or unnamed, and also offer the spellcasting at double sp cost. That would be something that made sense for a level 6 spell.

The "flavor" of the spell that locks out spellcasting was a poor decision when it was originally written, and just because the D&D game designers don't see a poor decision when they make one doesn't mean the mistake should be replicated here. 3.5 is full of bad decisions by the designers, and adhering to these bad decisions blindly out of nostalgia is a bad choice. The spell was originally intended to be an "oh ****, I'm out of spells and need to fight" spell. The problem is, it should never be used that way (or in any way, at all, ever) in PnP. A smart player roleplaying the INT of a wizard would always keep 2 "oh ****" spells in reserve, Teleport and/or Polymorph (shapechange if they are level 17+), Polymorph being only level 4 and superior in every way to TT. Being able to assume a Huge form with up to more than 10 attacks per round is insanely better than changing into some punk medium character with a sword and no feats or character features with which to use it decently. Using the spell makes you a fighter, only worse, and we all know how bad fighters are in 3.5.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Also, most of the secondary benefits of the spell will not affect anybody. +4 enhancement bonuses are worse than the +6's everybody wears. Casters already have master's touch, which gives weapon proficiencies from shrine to shrine with a single cast. The +4 enhancement bonus to natural armor is easily replicated with a potion, or surpassed by a ranger (and no melee arcane cares about AC, anyway). +5 to fort saves is okay, but hardly game-breaking.

The only major benefit of casting it would be the BAB increase, offering better attack speed and attacks, which is not really worth a level 6 spell slot (but I'd be okay with it occupying one) to most characters (level 6 spells are very, very thin, several useful ones at that level).

I would go so far as to say that you *should* change the bonuses to profane, or unnamed, and also offer the spellcasting at double sp cost. That would be something that made sense for a level 6 spell.

The "flavor" of the spell that locks out spellcasting was a poor decision when it was originally written, and just because the D&D game designers don't see a poor decision when they make one doesn't mean the mistake should be replicated here. 3.5 is full of bad decisions by the designers, and adhering to these bad decisions blindly out of nostalgia is a bad choice. The spell was originally intended to be an "oh ****, I'm out of spells and need to fight" spell. The problem is, it should never be used that way (or in any way, at all, ever) in PnP. A smart player roleplaying the INT of a wizard would always keep 2 "oh ****" spells in reserve, Teleport and/or Polymorph (shapechange if they are level 17+), Polymorph being only level 4 and superior in every way to TT. Being able to assume a Huge form with up to more than 10 attacks per round is insanely better than changing into some punk medium character with a sword and no feats or character features with which to use it decently. Using the spell makes you a fighter, only worse, and we all know how bad fighters are in 3.5.

I agree with your assessment of the DDO interpretation of Tensers. Stacking would be the best route.

However in PnP we need to disagree. Getting 2 more swings with a bigger power attack, and more than a dozen melee increasing spells, is much bigger than you are giving credit. With the correct build and spell selection a melee wiz can make melee a first option.

Profane or Insight would both be decent stacking options in DDO.

[Lithic]

I agree with your assessment of the DDO interpretation of Tensers. Stacking would be the best route.

However in PnP we need to disagree. Getting 2 more swings with a bigger power attack, and more than a dozen melee increasing spells, is much bigger than you are giving credit. With the correct build and spell selection a melee wiz can make melee a first option.

Profane or Insight would both be decent stacking options in DDO.

I don't know about you, but my DM hardly ever gave my character a chance to cast 12+ melee increasing spells before combat began. Might be just our group though


As for the stacking, if they stack as +4s, then every UMD will have this up at all times. I'd suggest dropping the str and con bonus to +2, and setting it an exceptional bonus so it wont stack with the ToD ring effects most melees would carry anyway.

Either that, or take out the scrolls. With no scrolls, then +4 stacking stats would make a lot more sense and make it an attractive option to have in the lvl 6 spell slot. It might also make which lvl 6 spell to carry a harder choice, especially to a WF battlesorc.

[Dingdongtudelu]

I would love for tensers to have an actual use for arcane chars! However, as much as I would love to see the spell changed, I would really like to stress the fact that I would feel completely the other way, should I see all fighters casting this spell from wands or scrolls.

I love the suggestions made, but am opposed to having the bonus stack with everything, for the reason mentioned above.

[moorewr]

My suggestions:

• Nerf Divine Power clickies so the BAB you receive is the caster level of the item - they've already capped this at 16, I believe? so that's a step in the right direction...
• Allow Tenser's Transformation to be dismissed at will
• Find an arcane spell in the d20 lore or invent one (I'll propose "Aspenor's Transformation" again ) that provides a smaller BAB or to hit/to dam boost along the lines of Divine Faith and does not interdict casting.

[Sarezar]

And make beholders supress magic, not dispel it...

...sorry couldn't resist... again...

[Syrophir]

While you are at it please do something to make Bladesworn more useful,
as it costs 4 ap and does maybe more harm than is being useful.

[Roziel_Longblade]

While you are at it please do something to make Bladesworn more useful,
as it costs 4 ap and does maybe more harm than is being useful.

Bladesworn is already a profane bonus. It is actually what we are suggesting Tenser gets upgraded to. I guess that is one vote that says changing the bonuses to Profane or Insight is the least that can be done... if not more.

I personally think it would be enough though.

[Vaelorn]

If the spell doesn't translate well from PnP to MMO, then you remove the spell (or never develop it in the first place). That's simple enough.

You do not slap a well-known, canonized label on something, and then just go making things different because you feel like it. Not only does that violate the spirit of the canon material and possibly your license to use said material, it also betrays every customer you lured in with the canon label.

This isn't even about D&D or DDO, it's about the core discussion going on here: source material, license, and canon.

[Aesop]

If the spell doesn't translate well from PnP to MMO, then you remove the spell (or never develop it in the first place). That's simple enough.

You do not slap a well-known, canonized label on something, and then just go making things different because you feel like it. Not only does that violate the spirit of the canon material and possibly your license to use said material, it also betrays every customer you lured in with the canon label.

This isn't even about D&D or DDO, it's about the core discussion going on here: source material, license, and canon.

The license isn't really an issue here. They've changed spells and feat and other effects to work within the game balance a number of times. If there was an issue they couldn't actually create the game at all.

They've even created new spell effects and completely reworked spells

[Aesop]

I always thought that the spell should progress as the caster level increased

maybe +4 to the Physical Stats at caster level 11 and +2 per 4 caster levels thereafter

to a maximum of +8 at caster level 19

the other benefits +4 Nat Armor and +5 Fort save could also increase by 1 per every 4 caster levels beyond 11

so +6 Natural Armor and +7 Fort Save at Caster level 19

letting you end a spell early would be a good idea also.If buff spells had a dismiss option that would make the effect a bit better

Aesop

[kingfisher]

My suggestions:

• Nerf Divine Power clickies so the BAB you receive is the caster level of the item - they've already capped this at 16, I believe? so that's a step in the right direction...
  

link?

[kingfisher]

I like that idea.

do you like like it like it or just kind of like it? like do you like it enough to push it through or just like saying you like it? like if it was me, i like really like it. like i like it a lot. but thats like just me you know.

[theboyftw]

enhancement bonuses at that level are kind of useless...everyone has items with +4 or greater by that level. They need to change them up to something that stacks. The BAB is nice, but being locked into the spell without any way to disable it sucks too.

[Phidius]

Love the necro...

[voodoogroves]

Love the necro...

Are you lonely today or something? I'm sensing a common ... theme (won't say fetish) in your responses to these today ;-)

[Phidius]

Are you lonely today or something? I'm sensing a common ... theme (won't say fetish) in your responses to these today ;-)

Giggle.