Petition for rework of Shintao PRE

[Kintro]

Something so strong... that every single non Monk can get it at level 1, for a pittance?

The only reason people are freaking out about it at all is because they are stuck in the mindset that Monks Do Not Get Nice Things.

Monks can't get silver weapons at level 1? You don't think +5 Holy Burst, Shocking Burst, Silver, Greater Evil Outsider Bane would be overpowered for a 6 level splash?

[Aesop]

Monks can't get silver weapons at level 1? You don't think +5 Holy Burst, Shocking Burst, Silver, Greater Evil Outsider Bane would be overpowered for a 6 level splash?

For Unarmed Combat only? Nope not OP compared to some others that get Lightning Strikes and 17-20 x3 crits

though I've already made my suggestion and it has nothing to do with the current more prevailant Mob types (other than to say Evil)


Aesop

[Hanza]

/signed
Not even close to worth the years I have been waiting for this. Very disappointing. My light my monk will not waste the APs and feat.

[chubbs99]

I like the aura idea that people keep mentioning instead of the near useless prot evil.

But rather then an aura against evil, I think it would be more reasonable to say make it a Lawful Radiance aura causing damage, or perhaps a debuff to Chaotic Beings who are within range. I'm thinking same kinda mechanic as what is it Tomb of the Shadow Knight? were when the mobs are withing a certain distance of the flames they get cursed.

30 Ki, Light move, "You radiate a Lawful Aura, chaotic creatures inside the aura are treated as if they had the effect "Bestow Curse" on them." (lasts 30/45/60 sec for T1, T2, T3)

and then to buff up the smite attack from its current, "3*level + 7 damage," I'd say make it a simple (.5 * Wis)*Level, as well as a 15 second cool down.

This way, say you have a 28 wis, not unreasonable for a level 20 monk. (.5*28)*20=280. Using Vhlad's number crunching data I quoted earlier,

It costs 15 ki and the act of using a shintao smite replaces the act of using an elemental strike.

15 ki is the equivalent cost of 1 earth IV strike and 1 earth III strike.
Earth IV strike: 16 + 2d10 on crit = 16 + 11*2/20 = 17.1
Earth III stirke: 12 + 2d6 on crit = 12 + 7*2/20 = 12.7

An elemental strike has a 100% chance of procing once, a 80% chance of procing twice, and a 8% chance of procing three times.

Therefore, we have: 17.1 + 0.8*17.1 + 0.08*17.1 = 32.148
12.7 + 0.8*12.7 + 0.08*12.7 = 23.876

...
Summary
Total damage from elemental strikes for 15 ki = 56.024

Using my new Smite number for 280 it has a 10% chance of critting unarmed for x2 damage: 0.9*280 + 0.1*280*2 = 308

yealds a Increase of 251.976 dps every 15 sec, or 16.7984 DPS
This puts it slightly better then Kotc I, but still less then the rest since Dark path is the real damage path.

[Kintro]

For Unarmed Combat only? Nope not OP compared to some others that get Lightning Strikes and 17-20 x3 crits

Compared to what DR bypasses might be given at tier 2/3? Monks are already pretty front loaded without giving the most desired DR bypass at tier 1 of a PrE.

[SquelchHU]

Monks can't get silver weapons at level 1? You don't think +5 Holy Burst, Shocking Burst, Silver, Greater Evil Outsider Bane would be overpowered for a 6 level splash?

+5 holy burst, shocking burst, silver, greater evil outsider bane... 1d8 19-20/x2.

Color me unimpressed. No, I don't think people would stop at Monk 6 just because Monks could finally do what everyone else does with a little forethought - break metal based DR.

And no, kamas do not count. The whole point of breaking damage reduction is to not have your damage reduced. That means no using a vastly inferior weapon type that results in more DPS loss than you'd get just punching for yellow numbers.

[Aesop]

Compared to what DR bypasses might be given at tier 2/3? Monks are already pretty front loaded without giving the most desired DR bypass at tier 1 of a PrE.

Doesn't outweigh a greensteel Lit II Khopesh for shear damage

Doesn't even outweigh Min II GS GA

again remember that we are talking with reduced # of unarmed Attacks and not of SMII or III

Honestly it wouldn't be OP in the least... though I stil lean towards my suggestion because it would be more unique and less Same old same old

Aesop

edit: oh and the only way that is different from +5 holy burst, shocking burst, Transmuting , greater evil outsider bane... 1d8 19-20/x2. is that it is less useful as it only bypasses silver DR

[mjrepro]

Something so strong... that every single non Monk can get it at level 1, for a pittance?

The only reason people are freaking out about it at all is because they are stuck in the mindset that Monks Do Not Get Nice Things.

I do wish I could say it is because we don't get nice things. But alas, it is more about silver being THE most precious of metals in the game. If the next big raid had Byeshk's all over the place, you would be saying give us Byeshk not silver for our Tier 1. Face it, you want silver because it is the one needed in Shroud/ToD/VoD, not because of the vampires.

I just think that as Tier 1, that is too nice, and Metalline at Tier 3 is just silly, so maybe Silver at Tier 3?

[Creeper]

/signed

So far Shintao is better off not taken. When ninja spy (which is awesome) comes out I am switching to dark on all my monks... again.

To everyone talking about CE getting turned off with finishers: They are fixing this so that it does not turn off.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253126

Casting spells etc. doesn't break CE now—just costs more mana. Finishers don't cost extra ki btw.

The Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring. Oh let me rephrase that; the Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring for me, as someone who has tested it. It sucks as much as it sounds like.

Again: CE does not break now.

[Aesop]

/signed

So far Shintao is better off not taken. When ninja spy (which is awesome) comes out I am switching to dark on all my monks... again.

To everyone talking about CE getting turned off with finishers: They are fixing this so that it does not turn off.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253126

Casting spells etc. doesn't break CE now—just costs more mana. Finishers don't cost extra ki btw.

The Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring. Oh let me rephrase that; the Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring for me, as someone who has tested it. It sucks as much as it sounds like.

Again: CE does not break now.

If they reduce the cooldown and ... actually just page back to my post on the first page and tell me if that would be better.

gotta go got a date

Aesop

[Creeper]

I just think that as Tier 1, that is too nice, and Metalline at Tier 3 is just silly, so maybe Silver at Tier 3?

I gotta ask ya; Metalline at Tier 3 is just silly? So at T3 lets say we get silver as you suggest. Now we will have DR Magic, Adamantine, Lawful, Byeshk, Cold Iron, and Silver.

That’s not silly, but giving us transmuting at T3 which, what? Also gives us flame touched? would be silly?

And if transmuting is the cream on top of this PRE, considering the absolute lameness of tiers 1 and 2, I will be even more nauseous about this, the PRE that I was looking forward to the most. I’m not arguing with you, just saying that giving us transmuting at T3 isn’t going to be much different than giving us Silver.

[J1NG]

Something so strong... that every single non Monk can get it at level 1, for a pittance?

The only reason people are freaking out about it at all is because they are stuck in the mindset that Monks Do Not Get Nice Things.

Want to give an example where light monks got something nice?

J1NG

[ezgoezit]

/signed

Typically, I take my build advice from others who have more time than I do and a better inclination for evaluating the strength of builds. I am currently using Rockin Robin's Wis/Dex build (modified) and I'm really fond of it and I think it is the perfect build for the Shintao PRE. I've spent some time in Lamania in the last week testing new stuff and I was planning on testing Shintao, but for the life of me, I can't see how I could utilize shintao without significantly adversely impacting my current build. This, combined with the problem that I am having more difficulty now building ki, makes me think I might have to pass on this even if my build should technically be ideally suited to it if this PRE stand "as is".

Ez

[Creeper]

If they reduce the cooldown and ... actually just page back to my post on the first page and tell me if that would be better.

gotta go got a date

Aesop

Yeah it would be better. I also would like to see a devotion type enhancement for Healing KI. More passive bonuses. I really did take the smite off my hotbar, it is that bad. The aura idea would help too. Maybe give a 20% bonus to monk light finisher buff duration at each tier. That would make it perfect. Keeping the 1 minute buffs up is a pain.

I maintain that a 3/17 monk/KOTC is the best shintao monk though.

[SquelchHU]

I do wish I could say it is because we don't get nice things. But alas, it is more about silver being THE most precious of metals in the game. If the next big raid had Byeshk's all over the place, you would be saying give us Byeshk not silver for our Tier 1. Face it, you want silver because it is the one needed in Shroud/ToD/VoD, not because of the vampires.

I just think that as Tier 1, that is too nice, and Metalline at Tier 3 is just silly, so maybe Silver at Tier 3?

I know, I want Monks to have the same basic melee functionality as every other melee. Terrible right? How dare I want to bypass basic metal based damage reductions several levels after everyone else gets the same functionality.

And Metalline at tier 3 too much? Really? Nevermind it's coming up to 10 levels AFTER items give the same functionality. Actually you're right, it is silly. To get it that late.

It should be more like choose 1-2 metals at tier 1, Metalline at tier 2, and some sort of DPS property at level 3. Because every other melee can get metalline for a +2 weapon enhancement.

/signed

So far Shintao is better off not taken. When ninja spy (which is awesome) comes out I am switching to dark on all my monks... again.

To everyone talking about CE getting turned off with finishers: They are fixing this so that it does not turn off.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253126

Casting spells etc. doesn't break CE now—just costs more mana. Finishers don't cost extra ki btw.

The Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring. Oh let me rephrase that; the Shintao smite evil thing is not worth hotbaring for me, as someone who has tested it. It sucks as much as it sounds like.

Again: CE does not break now.

I am aware of this. However it came up because he said he had it right now. As in before the fix went into play, which means he did have it cut off on him often. And that's the only reason I brought that up.

[Kintro]

Doesn't outweigh a greensteel Lit II Khopesh for shear damage

Doesn't even outweigh Min II GS GA

again remember that we are talking with reduced # of unarmed Attacks and not of SMII or III

Honestly it wouldn't be OP in the least... though I stil lean towards my suggestion because it would be more unique and less Same old same old

To eliminate as many variables as possible lets compare Min2 khopesh to a level 6 Monk Splash using the handwraps/ToD rings mentioned above. For simplicity the calculations assume all TWF/offhand numbers proportional to main hand ones. Feel free to correct anything I miss.

Shintao I (w/Silver)/KotC II Set of 20 Rolls:
1 miss
17 hits = (12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 9 (weapon) + 2 (kotc) + 1d8 (base) + 8d6 (holy, shock, bane, kotc)) * 17 = 1028.5
2 crits = ((12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 9 + 2 (kotc) + 1d8) * 2 + 8d6 (holy, shock, bane, kotc) + 3d6 (holy burst) + 1d10 (shocking burst)) * 2 = 218
Total 1246.5
50% Fortification: -54.5 = 1192

KotC III w/ Min 2 Khopesh
1 miss
15 hits = (12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 5 (weapon) + 4 (kotc) + 1d10 (base) + 6d6 (holy, kotc)) * 15 = 787.5
4 crits = ((12 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 1d10) * 3 + 6d6 (holy)) * 4 = 462
Total 1249.5
50% Fortification: -126 = 1123.5

So it's not that OP afterall, accounting for unarmed attack speed and full offhand str mod it's probably near Tempest I but only in a few situations. Also a Holy Sword Khopesh is much easier to get than 2 ToD rings. You could then make Lit2 Khopesh for even more DPS when the DR bypass isn't needed.

Regardless, I still think the most desired DR should be at the top tier.

edit: oh and the only way that is different from +5 holy burst, shocking burst, Transmuting , greater evil outsider bane... 1d8 19-20/x2. is that it is less useful as it only bypasses silver DR

The Metalline could be Holy while using the PrE.

[Creeper]

To eliminate as many variables as possible lets compare Min2 khopesh to a level 6 Monk Splash using the handwraps/ToD rings mentioned above. For simplicity the calculations assume all TWF/offhand numbers proportional to main hand ones. Feel free to correct anything I miss.

Shintao I (w/Silver)/KotC II Set of 20 Rolls:
1 miss
17 hits = (12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 9 (weapon) + 2 (kotc) + 1d8 (base) + 8d6 (holy, shock, bane, kotc)) * 17 = 1028.5
2 crits = ((12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 9 + 2 (kotc) + 1d8) * 2 + 8d6 (holy, shock, bane, kotc) + 3d6 (holy burst) + 1d10 (shocking burst)) * 2 = 218
Total 1246.5
50% Fortification: -54.5 = 1192

KotC III w/ Min 2 Khopesh
1 miss
15 hits = (12 (str) + 5 (PA) + 5 (weapon) + 4 (kotc) + 1d10 (base) + 6d6 (holy, kotc)) * 15 = 787.5
4 crits = ((12 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 1d10) * 3 + 6d6 (holy)) * 4 = 462
Total 1249.5
50% Fortification: -126 = 1123.5

So it's not that OP afterall, accounting for unarmed attack speed and full offhand str mod it's probably near Tempest I but only in a few situations. Also a Holy Sword Khopesh is much easier to get than 2 ToD rings. You could then make Lit2 Khopesh for even more DPS when the DR bypass isn't needed.

I have just a couple questions about this calculation.

1. Do you think this type of 20 roll system is a good way to compare dps? Not taking off hand str penalties for khopesh and using a 50% fort target and not adding the speed bonuses from unarmed and wind stance?

2. for the second calculation am I right that for the weapon you are only adding 1d10 base damage and +5 from the bonus, (Just plain min 2 khopesh. Why not holy sword?) while for the first calculation you are using holy, shock, and bane and then the additional holy burst and shocking burst damage on crits?

3. Did you leave out the paladin capstone, divine favor, and divine power on the second calculation?

4. What is the "+ 9 (weapon)" calculation in the first set?

5. All this is assuming no seeker item too, right? Wouldn't a epic bloodstone give the paladin 64 more points of damage? Non epic give it about 54 more points?

I am just suggesting this damage calculation may be pretty far from accurate.

Thanks in advance.

[mjrepro]

I know, I want Monks to have the same basic melee functionality as every other melee. Terrible right? How dare I want to bypass basic metal based damage reductions several levels after everyone else gets the same functionality.

And Metalline at tier 3 too much? Really? Nevermind it's coming up to 10 levels AFTER items give the same functionality. Actually you're right, it is silly. To get it that late.

I say silly because yeah Min II, we don't get it, but that does not mean we should get a PrE that would replace a weapon type. We already have rings that give us the holy, so we can just get pure metalline, now you say get rid of needing the metalline, and that would mean you could wear a Holyburst, Shockingburst, Icyburst, GEOB, Paralyzing. Your right, TOTALLY better than Min II since there is a **** ton of Acid on a Min II and last I knew the shroud was immune to acid. Lets see, 2d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d6 = 8d6 of extra damage, on top of 2d12 so that would be around 12d6 of damage on top of our strength mod? I just think that is a bit too silly. Would love it, but I try to live in the real world and not beg for the unrealistic and then complain when I don't get it.

[Greydeath]

/signed

[Creeper]

I say silly because yeah Min II, we don't get it, but that does not mean we should get a PrE that would replace a weapon type. .

Did you read were I explained why I didn’t think replacing silver with metalline for T3 would be overpowered because it would only add flame touched? So you are saying that simply adding flame touched would be unrealistic?

We already have rings that give us the holy, so we can just get pure metalline, now you say get rid of needing the metalline, and that would mean you could wear a Holyburst, Shockingburst, Icyburst, GEOB, Paralyzing. Your right, TOTALLY better than Min II since there is a **** ton of Acid on a Min II and last I knew the shroud was immune to acid. Lets see, 2d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d6 = 8d6 of extra damage, on top of 2d12 so that would be around 12d6 of damage on top of our strength mod? I just think that is a bit too silly. Would love it, but I try to live in the real world and not beg for the unrealistic and then complain when I don't get it

Ok, firstly you are adding all those numbers together here as if they are all the result of adding metalline:

Lets see, 2d6 + 1d6 + 1d6 + 3d6 = 8d6 of extra damage, on top of 2d12 so that would be around 12d6 of damage on top of our strength mod? I just think that is a bit too silly. Would love it, but I try to live in the real world and not beg for the unrealistic and then complain when I don't get it

—when you can already achieve this and if they added silver you would be able to achieve this with anything that had flame touched DR. It’s not as if the 12d6 you are detailing is the result of inherent metalline, only one of the sets of numbers vs. FT dr. And again the difference between silver and metalline is a joke for T3 so it’s hard to call this unrealistic and silly I think.