Another S&B Improvement Thread - Shields 101

[Aspenor]

Here are some suggestions to make S&B better.

Improved Shield Bash - Gives the wielder the ability to two-weapon fight with shields, with the shield treated as an off-hand weapon. The shield is treated as a light weapon when used in this manner.

Coupled with improved shield bash:

Green Steel Shields - +5 Green Steel Shield, +2 Reinforced Plating, treated as a weapon for purposes of crafting, 1d10 base damage + 1/2 strength bonus + other modifiers

Normal Shields - 1d8 base damage + 1/2 strength bonus + other modifiers, possibly add weapon effects to randomly generated shields since it is rare that ones are used with other modifiers.

And for defense:

Shield Mastery - grants a 20% chance for the wielder to block incoming attacks without utilizing active block, grants the same bonuses to DR from blocking as normal, but not the +2 AC.

Improved Shield Mastery - grants a 35% chance for the wielder to block incoming attacks without utilizing active block (does not stack with Shield Mastery), grants the same bonuses to DR from blocking as normal (stacks with the similar Shield Mastery effect) but not the +2 AC.

[coolpenguin410]

Improved Shield Bash - Gives the wielder the ability to two-weapon fight with shields, with the shield treated as an off-hand weapon. The shield is treated as a light weapon when used in this manner.

Like

Green Steel Shields - +5 Green Steel Shield, +2 Reinforced Plating, treated as a weapon for purposes of crafting, 1d10 base damage + strength bonus + other modifiers

This makes me nervous. Are we sure we want to add more AC to the game? Drop the reinforced plating and then design them to be DPS while S&B'ing and we're talking. Having a shield for DPS (non-mithral after all) and then a shield for AC/tanking is an interesting prospect.

Normal Shields - 1d8 base damage + strength bonus + other modifiers, possibly add weapon effects to randomly generated shields since it is rare that ones are used with other modifiers.

Too lazy to go look up PnP standards for shield bashing, so I'll skip this.

And for defense:

Shield Mastery - grants a 20% chance for the wielder to block incoming attacks without utilizing active block, grants the same bonuses to DR from blocking as normal, but not the +2 AC.

Improved Shield Mastery - grants a 35% chance for the wielder to block incoming attacks without utilizing active block (does not stack with Shield Mastery), grants the same bonuses to DR from blocking as normal (stacks with the similar Shield Mastery effect) but not the +2 AC.

Like...for the most part.

I would make it simple and just a +20% chance to shield bash proc per feat. However, I don't think we need the extra AC or DR when not blocking. I like the boost to AC and DR when blocking to be an active strategy the player has to choose to do. While passive benefits are great and all, this would give you one more reason not to shield block ever.

However, I also have a high DR WF intimi-tank, so I'm a bit partial.

[Aspenor]

edited damage to be 1/2 strength modifier

[Aspenor]

I would make it simple and just a +20% chance to shield bash proc per feat. However, I don't think we need the extra AC or DR when not blocking. I like the boost to AC and DR when blocking to be an active strategy the player has to choose to do. While passive benefits are great and all, this would give you one more reason not to shield block ever.

You wouldn't get the AC bonus, only the DR, and 35% of the time tops, not even close to the 100% from active block.

[coolpenguin410]

You wouldn't get the AC bonus, only the DR, and 35% of the time tops, not even close to the 100% from active block.

The two weapon fighting chain would increase rate of off-hand shield bash attacks.

Sorry, I misread it. I still don't like it. If you're going to get DR passively 35% of the time, why bother dropping your DPS at all? As it is, it's hard to rationalize shield blocking except with certain raid bosses. If you've got a decent chance for it to go off anyways, why bother?

Originally, I read it too quickly and thought you were going for a chance to proc a shield bash. With offensive green steel shields and the recent (still pending) nerf to TWF, I feel a 35%-40% chance to proc would bring up S&B DPS to be competitive but not over step TWF. Personally, I'd prefer TWF feats have little to no impact on S&B style.

That said, I believe I've seen you post things like this before. I doubt we'll reach a consesus.

[Ralmeth]

Good ideas Aspenor. I especially like shield bash giving you an an off-hand attack with your shield.

However instead of the shield mastery feats being defensive oriented, as much as that makes sense, I'd prefer these to add to DPS. In particular the shield mastery feats could be considered as giving you an opportunity to riposte (or counterattack) after a successful use of your shield. Translated into the new combat system each shield mastery feat would give you a % chance for double strike (i.e. your riposte).

[Aspenor]

Sorry, I misread it. I still don't like it. If you're going to get DR passively 35% of the time, why bother dropping your DPS at all? As it is, it's hard to rationalize shield blocking except with certain raid bosses. If you've got a decent chance for it to go off anyways, why bother?

Originally, I read it too quickly and thought you were going for a chance to proc a shield bash. With offensive green steel shields and the recent (still pending) nerf to TWF, I feel a 35%-40% chance to proc would bring up S&B DPS to be competitive but not over step TWF. Personally, I'd prefer TWF feats have little to no impact on S&B style.

That said, I believe I've seen you post things like this before. I doubt we'll reach a consesus.

How is it any different than the current state? Nobody shield blocks.

A 35-40% chance to proc a shield strike wouldn't bring S&B anywhere near TWF, and neither would the idea that I propose. The comparatively weak damage and crit range of the shield would itself make DPS significantly lower than TWF.

As an alternative to the twf feats affecting the shield strikes, the shield mastery feats could do this instead (and replace the above proposals, instead granting increasing bonuses in chance for shield strikes as TWF feats do for their style).

What do you mean by "things like this?"

[Boromirs]

How is it any different than the current state? Nobody shield blocks.

A 35-40% chance to proc a shield strike wouldn't bring S&B anywhere near TWF, and neither would the idea that I propose. The comparatively weak damage and crit range of the shield would itself make DPS significantly lower than TWF.

As an alternative to the twf feats affecting the shield strikes, the shield mastery feats could do this instead (and replace the above proposals, instead granting increasing bonuses in chance for shield strikes as TWF feats do for their style).

What do you mean by "things like this?"

Another thought is adding a randomized auto-block for shields. Instead of AC or DR, a d20 roll (+5 for small shields, +8 for larges, +12 for towers) determines the % chance for a autoblock on each hit, if successful you block the shot and % of the damage goes to the shield's dura instead of your HP (depending on hardness etc.).

[Deathseeker]

Not a major change, but I'd love to see Weighted and Vertigo added to the random loot tables for shields. Allowing S&B to have the bonuses without sacrificing a source of dps on their main hand would be a nice addition, and give them another way to be additive to the party.

And you could basically replace almost any current mod found on shields as they are all just about useless at this point.

[Aesop]

Yep that's pretty close to the way I had listed it as well.

HOWEVER

I would perfer this to be a distict style from TWF and as such would notwant TWF Feat to apply. Instead I'd want Improved Shield Bash to give a bonus to the Shield Bash Proc. Also (Improved) Shield Mastery would give a bonus to Shield Block Proc.


so

No Feat = 20% Shield Bash
Improved Shield Bash = +20%

perhaps also have certain Enhancements add a small amount to the Shield Bash Proc

DoS or SD could add a little something to each since they are lower DPS anyway. Also Fighter Capstone wouldn't be inappropriate to increase the Proc. 5% per tier of PrEs and Capstone


Also

No Feat = 10% Shield Block
Shield Mastery = +10% Shield Block
Imroved Shield Mastery = +10% Shield Block

DoS and SD could also add here as well maybe even an additional 5%

That would give a DS with full feats a 45% chance to Block and attack and if they had the Capstone as well they'd have a 60% chance of Shield Bashing


Damage wise shield bashes should be d6 weapons. I'd really like to see something like the Allchemical Crafting options to add weapon effects to shields... call it Shield Spikes or whatever and that way you can have your normal defensive shield and with some effort and time you can add certain effects to make them more offensive


Aesop

[Aspenor]

HOWEVER

I would perfer this to be a distict style from TWF and as such would notwant TWF Feat to apply. Instead I'd want Improved Shield Bash to give a bonus to the Shield Bash Proc. Also (Improved) Shield Mastery would give a bonus to Shield Block Proc.

Yeah, I think it would work better this way.

However, I'm going to stick with my Green Steel Shield suggestion and the damage dice. They should be better for a GS than a non-GS.

[Winteris]

Making active shield block really active woudl be nice also. Mobs hits so slow that it would be possible to hit it between blocks. Mayeb devs should look at that not at jump animation.

[Aesop]

Yeah, I think it would work better this way.

However, I'm going to stick with my Green Steel Shield suggestion and the damage dice. They should be better for a GS than a non-GS.

Yeah a pure Shield Crafting would be nice too... as long as its not that random dragontouched armor crafting that blows diseased goat honkus

[Aspenor]

Yeah a pure Shield Crafting would be nice too... as long as its not that random dragontouched armor crafting that blows diseased goat honkus

I'd like it added to Shroud crafting. A S&B user with a Lightning II shield and a Lightning II weapon would just be too cool.

[Kistilan]

Yeah a pure Shield Crafting would be nice too... as long as its not that random dragontouched armor crafting that blows diseased goat honkus

As elegant as always, chere?!?

But /signed

I agree, Shields should be in the GS recipes.

Note: Aspenor for Shield Maiden! Slay the TWF Nazgul!

There's another interesting thread concerning DT'd armor random fixes. That would be a step in the right direction. I've boycotted it based on its randomness when I played. I enjoy Wild Mage, but only as Wild Mage -- not as a Fighter trying to smith his armor up! Anyway, DT'd shields would be nice too: if they fix the randomness system.

[coolpenguin410]

How is it any different than the current state? Nobody shield blocks.

I do. Granted, it's a situational tactic but a valid one that I feel is under used. My opinion is that we should be looking was to encourage this tactic (or tactics in general) rather than discouraging them.

A 35-40% chance to proc a shield strike wouldn't bring S&B anywhere near TWF, and neither would the idea that I propose. The comparatively weak damage and crit range of the shield would itself make DPS significantly lower than TWF.

We shouldn't bring S&B up to TWF. That's part of the idea of S&B. You sacrifice some damage for a boost to defense. It shouldn't be the DPS black hole that it is now, just viable. Throwing around some shield bashes in addition to your regular damage will help that.

As an alternative to the twf feats affecting the shield strikes, the shield mastery feats could do this instead (and replace the above proposals, instead granting increasing bonuses in chance for shield strikes as TWF feats do for their style).

This I like. This is what I had in mind.

What do you mean by "things like this?"

I may have confused you with another forumite that posts about improving S&B frequently. If so, I apologize.

[iamsamoth0]

But there seem to be several upper tier players in.
Is there a shield that gives Striding as a ability?
I happened to think that would be a nice one to push off on to. Take it out of the customary boot slot, or where ever it happens to land.

[Udalric]

Yep that's pretty close to the way I had listed it as well.

HOWEVER

I would perfer this to be a distict style from TWF and as such would notwant TWF Feat to apply. Instead I'd want Improved Shield Bash to give a bonus to the Shield Bash Proc. Also (Improved) Shield Mastery would give a bonus to Shield Block Proc.


so

No Feat = 20% Shield Bash
Improved Shield Bash = +20%

perhaps also have certain Enhancements add a small amount to the Shield Bash Proc

DoS or SD could add a little something to each since they are lower DPS anyway. Also Fighter Capstone wouldn't be inappropriate to increase the Proc. 5% per tier of PrEs and Capstone


Also

No Feat = 10% Shield Block
Shield Mastery = +10% Shield Block
Imroved Shield Mastery = +10% Shield Block

DoS and SD could also add here as well maybe even an additional 5%

That would give a DS with full feats a 45% chance to Block and attack and if they had the Capstone as well they'd have a 60% chance of Shield Bashing


Damage wise shield bashes should be d6 weapons. I'd really like to see something like the Allchemical Crafting options to add weapon effects to shields... call it Shield Spikes or whatever and that way you can have your normal defensive shield and with some effort and time you can add certain effects to make them more offensive


Aesop

Seems like a very rational idea