3/4 BAB Classes

[TiranBlade]

wrong

doublestrike do proc offhands

so you can have 2 mainhand attacks and 2 offhand attacks in one swing


thats correct
if specials porc on offhands (think trip and tod do) then you can have 4 with 1 swing, yes

Yes, you do get an off hand proc on a double strike and if your luck holds out and you manage to maximize your double strike high enough when the DS items appear, your maximum number of attacks in DDO will have gone from

Ranger Tempest III = Max # 9
New Ranger Tempest III or other combinations = Max # 16

OLD ATTACK CHAIN
First Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand
Second Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand
Thrid Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand/Tempest III Off Hand
Frouth Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand
 
NEW ATTACK CHAIN
First Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand/Double Strike/Double Strike Off Hand
Second Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand/Double Strike/Double Strike Off Hand
Third Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand/Double Strike/Double Strike Off Hand
Fourth Attack: Main Hand/Off Hand/Double Strike/Double Strike Off Hand

Under the new system with two weapon fighting early on you have a chance of getting attacks on every attack, but at the same time a chance of not getting a single off hand on any(to be honest, though it may not be dnd 3.5, the chancing does give it a dnd feel), also if you manage to get a doublestrike item or ability early on you TWF attacks increase you possible number of attacks early on. So for those who think this is a complete nerf haven't considered the full possibilites of what it could mean if you namaged to get Off Hand 100% and maybe one day Double Strike 100%.

[Chai]

All this talk of double attacks and offhand procs when dual wielding is starting to remind me of EverQuest.

Heck the kukri even look like Yakesha swords....

[TiranBlade]

88% actually

offhand attacks proc on doublestrike attacks too

Actually the numbers are more like 86.4% chance for off hand attacks while having an 8% double strike. This is because you have to consider your % chance with getting off hand attacks calculated against the % chance of double strikes. Hence

X=Total Off Hand %
Y=Base Off Hand %
Z=Double Strike %
 
X=Y+(Y*Z)
 
X=.8+(.8*.08)
X=.8+.064
X=.864
X=86.4%

[TiranBlade]

All this talk of double attacks and offhand procs when dual wielding is starting to remind me of EverQuest.

Heck the kukri even look like Yakesha swords....

That's Because the Short Sword of the Ykesha was a Kukri Gurka (A larger version of a Kukri), and yes aside from the skill system used to roll combat attacks, this is almost identical to everquest's system.

 
Skill: (Weapon Type)=Attack Rolls
Skill: Dual Wield=Secondary Weapon Attack Chance
Skill: Double Attack=Double Attack Chance w/ Secondary Attacks
Skill: Triple Attack=Third Attack Chance off Double Attack w/ Secondary Attacks

[Visty]

Actually the numbers are more like 86.4% chance for off hand attacks while having an 8% double strike. This is because you have to consider your % chance with getting off hand attacks calculated against the % chance of double strikes. Hence

X=Total Off Hand %
Y=Base Off Hand %
Z=Double Strike %
 
X=Y+(Y*Z)
 
X=.8+(.8*.08)
X=.8+.064
X=.864
X=86.4%

which is why 88% is correct

zeal gives +10% doublestrike, you know

nothing gives +8%

[Chai]

Actually the numbers are more like 86.4% chance for off hand attacks while having an 8% double strike. This is because you have to consider your % chance with getting off hand attacks calculated against the % chance of double strikes. Hence

X=Total Off Hand %
Y=Base Off Hand %
Z=Double Strike %
 
X=Y+(Y*Z)
 
X=.8+(.8*.08)
X=.8+.064
X=.864
X=86.4%

Right, its more a matter of mathematical probability rather than simple addition. I can already see how much this is going to be argued over in the future by people who favor DPS spreadsheets and vacuum calcs over actual testing and tangible results.

[TiranBlade]

which is why 88% is correct

zeal gives +10% doublestrike, you know

nothing gives +8%

Ah, ok, misunderstood that. So yes, it is an 88% chance.

X=Total Off Hand %
Y=80%=Base Off Hand %
Z=10%=Double Strike %
 
X=Y+(Y*Z)
 
X=.8+(.8*.1)
X=.8+.08
X=.88
X=88%

POST # 200

[TiranBlade]

Right, its more a matter of mathematical probability rather than simple addition. I can already see how much this is going to be argued over in the future by people who favor DPS spreadsheets and vacuum calcs over actual testing and tangible results.

Correct, the means to provide DPS numbers for both THF and TWF now with the addition of Double Stirke and Off Hand Proc'ing now shows that you can only calculate the "Average" DPS, which is a term I would use loosely becuase it will not be completely correct. In effect it's almost impossible to calculate a true DPS.

[Chai]

Correct, the means to provide DPS numbers for both THF and TWF now with the addition of Double Stirke and Off Hand Proc'ing now shows that you can only calculate the "Average" DPS, which is a term I would use loosely becuase it will not be completely correct. In effect it's almost impossible to calculate a true DPS.

Yeap, calculating average DPS in a vacuum.

I am more of a testing and tangible result kind of guy as I understand the situational nature of this game we play. The calcs are interesting though, in an ideal situation.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

wrong

doublestrike do proc offhands

so you can have 2 mainhand attacks and 2 offhand attacks in one swing


thats correct
if specials porc on offhands (think trip and tod do) then you can have 4 with 1 swing, yes

No, it is you who is wrong. My post was correct, per Eladrin:

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc an off hand attack as well?

would a double striked main hand attack have a chance to proc another main hand attack?

No, the additional attacks will not trigger additional additional attacks. That path leads to a one in a million chance of complete madness.


Many Paladins are likely to want to TWF as well. Anyone that has bonus "on-hit" effects, whether it be sneak attack or actual effects.

[Visty]

No, it is you who is wrong. My post was correct, per Eladrin:

its not given that he refers to the doublestrike -> offhand thing
he might as well just respond to the doublestrike -> doublestrike thing

[Stanley_Nicholas]

its not given that he refers to the doublestrike -> offhand thing
he might as well just respond to the doublestrike -> doublestrike thing

His answer was a generalization that encompasses both questions. A doublestrike is an additional attack. Additional attacks do not proc more additional attacks. The logic isn't hard to follow.

[TiranBlade]

No, it is you who is wrong. My post was correct, per Eladrin:

I think what Eladrin was meaning was the fact you can't trigger a double strike off of a double strike. Because there are those who have triggered an off hand off of a double strike in Lam if I remember correctly.

Off Hand Proc off of Main Hand Only.
Double Strike off of non-Doulbe Main Hand Only.

[Visty]

His answer was a generalization that encompasses both questions. A doublestrike is an additional attack. Additional attacks do not proc more additional attacks. The logic isn't hard to follow.

Two Weapon Fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) have been optimized for performance and balance. Off hand attacks now have a chance to proc (trigger) off of any main hand attacks based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (and related enhancements) you possess. (Instead of being predetermined on certain attacks in the attack chain.)

doublestrikes are mainhand attacks

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I think what Eladrin was meaning was the fact you can't trigger a double strike off of a double strike. Because there are those who have triggered an off hand off of a double strike in Lam if I remember correctly.

Off Hand Proc off of Main Hand Only.
Double Strike off of non-Doulbe Main Hand Only.

My understanding when I read his quote is that doublestrikes proc nothing because they are additional attacks. They are main hand attacks, but they still clearly count as additional attacks.

[TiranBlade]

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

    Doublestrike    Bonus    Main hand    Off hand
No feats    0    20%    100%        20%
TWF        0    +20%    100%        40%
ITWF        0    +20%    100%        60%
GTWF        0    +20%    100%        80%
Tempest I    0    +10%    100%        90%
Tempest II    0    +10%    100%        100% 
Tempest III    +5%*    0    105%        100%
Wind IV        +10%    0    110%        80%
Zeal        +10%    0    110%        80%
Alacrity    +10%    0    110%        80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.

Edit 2:
Updated information in the main post to reflect the most recent changes.

In bold states the intention of using Double Strike to benifit TWF.

[Emili]

this

every one else has just 80% offhand proc, more if they have doublestrike

Double strike - is a chance an additional attack roll with your main hand weapon on the target in the first attack sequence of the chain of attacks. Most the alacrity speed bonus' were replaced with a chance to do this second strike in place of attack speed... ie fighter capstone and the pally zeal spell create a +10% to cause a double strike, monk air stances up to a +10% chance to double strike chance and tempest III is chance +5% double strike (greater air stance still maintains some of it's speed).

Or in release notes ... release note
A new mechanic has been introduced called "double strike". A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attacks or somewhere within. <- this statement is totally acurate

I hear many people mention double strike items... fine and fair I suppose but who is to tell they'll ever release a single one or that those are not named objects "Dagger of quickness" or will not be weapons themselves meaning you're not going to be using an appropriate weapon set nor your best dps weapon set for a mob or that it may be added in SoS armour lotery slot replacing something else you really wished or in your belt slot where you wore knost or replacing one of my ToD rings - items are tight, weapons are tight - and without knowing anything doublestrike items may not fit into your standard dress at all. Seeker AC HP Resist items more powerful due to double strike may only occur on first attack sequence ...

I took liberty on my kensai, kotc, monk and tempest ... attacks per min on stationary object was what I was counting (where we were pre-tempest a few years ago) I noted double strike as random as is seems to occur bout one every 80-100 attacks or somewhere within.

... and so then I hear shade and other heavy barbarian pro people scream of thier capstone being changed ... well fact be so has the fighter capstone to nothing but an extra chance for a double strike and the zeal spell the likes...

[Stanley_Nicholas]

One more thing, right now a paladin with GTWF can get a Double Smite one with each hand. You answered for Coldin that the double strikes for Main hand can produce a Smite, All off hand procs if it was based off a smite attack should produce a smite as well correct? So a TWF Paladin in U5 could theoretically get 3 Smites from 1 smite. 1 for MH, 1 for Double Strike, and 1 for Off-hand Strike?

That is correct.

If it were possible to get 4 strikes out of one hit, wouldn't Eladrin have mentioned it here? Also, Daehawk appears to agree with my understanding.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

In bold states the intention of using Double Strike to benifit TWF.

Look at the chart in Eladrin's post that you quoted. If it were true that doublestrikes can proc offhand attacks, then the offhand % would go up when doublestrikes enter the picture. It doesn't.

[Visty]

If it were possible to get 4 strikes out of one hit, wouldn't Eladrin have mentioned it here? Also, Daehawk appears to agree with my understanding.

why would he mention it if it isnt asked for?
also tiranblade brought a quote which makes it clear that doublestrike is increasing offhand attacks