Twitch THF is dead - TWF now reigns supreme

[BlackSteel]

Why would only raids and raid bosses count?

b/c trash mobs die in 1-3 hits (about a second each)

unless you're running epic, then they get stunned and die anyway as well. (which TWF does more damage there too if you're smart enough to use picks)

[R0cksteady]

The actual lower to hit hasnt been noted as enough to be a big deal and dex allows for a half decent ac bonus with mithral armor and tends to help very much with high ac builds. Exotic weapon proficiency is nothing more to do with 2wf than it is if using one weapon. The counter argument for a 2 handed weapon such as a great axe is it is a single wielded weapon that doesnt allow for a shield but unlike 2 weapons is much more limited in dps and chance to crit and no chance for as much crit effects.

Yeah, the dex helps with AC builds. but not for DPS builds. So maybe 1 in 10 people who use TWF, if that, give a **** about AC. Most people would prefer to ave strength and con maxed out and then put some points into intelligence.

[Monkey_Archer]

well if it is 105:110... why do you say 105:129 in the op.

I was thinking somewhere around 25% would enough to really get the job done to keep twitch at least on par with standing.

the other thing is that these calculations are of course against a single opponent.

so how about against 2 opponents or 3 or 4.

I mean I know only Raids count and raid bosses, but being more useful against groups isn't a terrible thing over all.

Aesop

The OP uses the twitch attack rate, which is significantly faster then moving and attacking.
To keep all three roughly equal in dps, standing still would have 75% glancing, moving would have 50% glancing, and twitch would have maybe 5%.

As i see it, the removal of moving glancing blows was a direct nerf on twitch (to make sure it wouldn't out dps TWF) but went too far, and unfortunately hit mobile THF even harder.

25% glancing blow proc rate while moving could be a good compromise.

[joneb1999]

Yeah, the dex helps with AC builds. but not for DPS builds. So maybe 1 in 10 people who use TWF, if that, give a **** about AC. Most people would prefer to ave strength and con maxed out and then put some points into intelligence.

the points into dex and lower to hit are one and the same and so as the lower to hit makes hardly if any difference and damage bonus is still the same if strength is 18 or 32 there is barely any loss here for the dex points.

[maddmatt70]

Perfect twitch is not possible all the time. No serious DPS character will be dropping those feats to loose 10 dps...

As I stated in another thread the real best barbarian on my server does not have those feats and yeah he twitches all the time.

[Stamp3de]

So he's twitching and not doing max dmg ur saying?

[Winteris]

Yeah, the dex helps with AC builds. but not for DPS builds. So maybe 1 in 10 people who use TWF, if that, give a **** about AC. Most people would prefer to ave strength and con maxed out and then put some points into intelligence.

You r the walking proof for what they make to that game. You r arguing that TWF should have higher DPS because of bigger investments which TWF'ers have to make but you are not noticing what other advantages they have while dual-wielding. So lets enumerate it:

-they can dualwield weapons with on-crit or on-hit effects (paralyzing, banishers, vorpals, smiters etc) that was an advantage till recently released epic content. Those weapons r effective till Vale or even till VoD

- they can use weapon with +trip or +stun bonuses and in other hand any other weapon, bonus from one hand counts toward hits form other hand (also seeker effect)

- with careful timing they have double chance to trip, stun, smite (if pally), asasinate (if rog) mobs

- higher dex is great for reflex save, which helps non-evasion chars as well, save made for some spells or traps = half damage taken, thats huge, barely noone notice it because ppl tends to gimp their dex stat if they have no evasion

- higher dex mean better to-hit with ranged weapons, which counts not only on rangers or splashed builds, ppl laugh about throwing weapons but they can be fairly effective sometimes, check prices on AH if u dont believe me

- AC is useless on higher levels, but some clases have potential to have meaningful AC up to vale and shroud even w/o much grinding

is that not enough advantages to dualwield ?

Additionally, maxing con or str gives u in reallity not much advantage its 1,5 damage more from str and 20hp more from con, is that really what makes char good or not for u ?

[elyssaria]

A question I always considered myself when I do THF builds is:

Why does people only look at the dps against a single target? I mean a part of the point with THF is that you get glancing blows on OTHER targets then the one you are hitting on. I group alot with a BigFnStick build and his glancing blows does TONS of extra damage when we get rushed by many mobs. I think that has been a great benefit to our group at least.

So to request that THF should do the same damage as twf AND then also do glancing blows that hits all around them seem not very logical.

In the DPS calculator you can actually add how many targets you are fighting.. try to run such calculation when facing around 3 targets (which I would consider a normal pull overrall) and you will see how the DPS is for a THF Can assure you that it's top dps against any TWF build at that point. However people only compare single target DPS and yes THF is not equal to TWF there and in my oppinion it shouldn't be either since TWF never get any glancing blows.

If the both fighting forms need to be equal but still different then the only thing would be to give TWF little glancing blows and THF more base damage. Which would give equal dps but in different ways.. ie THF gets many glancing blows and slightly lower base damage and TWF gets few glancing blows but higher base damage. However I wouldn't find that too attractive since I like a more clear difference between fighting styles.

By saying this I don't mean to say that the changes are justified, what I mean is that I don't see it fair that THF should have same singletarget dps as twf and also have the benefits of glancing blows against many targets which actually gives a **** high DPS in the calculators if more then 1 target is calculated.

It's obvious that they wanted to take away some of the benefits of twitching however I am also not sure if this is the way to go.

Cheers!

/Khierra

[Monkey_Archer]

You r the walking proof for what they make to that game. You r arguing that TWF should have higher DPS because of bigger investments which TWF'ers have to make but you are not noticing what other advantages they have while dual-wielding. So lets enumerate it:

-they can dualwield weapons with on-crit or on-hit effects (paralyzing, banishers, vorpals, smiters etc) that was an advantage till recently released epic content. Those weapons r effective till Vale or even till VoD

- they can use weapon with +trip or +stun bonuses and in other hand any other weapon, bonus from one hand counts toward hits form other hand (also seeker effect)

- with careful timing they have double chance to trip, stun, smite (if pally), asasinate (if rog) mobs

- higher dex is great for reflex save, which helps non-evasion chars as well, save made for some spells or traps = half damage taken, thats huge, barely noone notice it because ppl tends to gimp their dex stat if they have no evasion

- higher dex mean better to-hit with ranged weapons, which counts not only on rangers or splashed builds, ppl laugh about throwing weapons but they can be fairly effective sometimes, check prices on AH if u dont believe me

- AC is useless on higher levels, but some clases have potential to have meaningful AC up to vale and shroud even w/o much grinding

is that not enough advantages to dualwield ?

Additionally, maxing con or str gives u in reallity not much advantage its 1,5 damage more from str and 20hp more from con, is that really what makes char good or not for u ?

A question I always considered myself when I do THF builds is:

Why does people only look at the dps against a single target? I mean a part of the point with THF is that you get glancing blows on OTHER targets then the one you are hitting on. I group alot with a BigFnStick build and his glancing blows does TONS of extra damage when we get rushed by many mobs. I think that has been a great benefit to our group at least.

So to request that THF should do the same damage as twf AND then also do glancing blows that hits all around them seem not very logical.

In the DPS calculator you can actually add how many targets you are fighting.. try to run such calculation when facing around 3 targets (which I would consider a normal pull overrall) and you will see how the DPS is for a THF Can assure you that it's top dps against any TWF build at that point. However people only compare single target DPS and yes THF is not equal to TWF there and in my oppinion it shouldn't be either since TWF never get any glancing blows.

If the both fighting forms need to be equal but still different then the only thing would be to give TWF little glancing blows and THF more base damage. Which would give equal dps but in different ways.. ie THF gets many glancing blows and slightly lower base damage and TWF gets few glancing blows but higher base damage. However I wouldn't find that too attractive since I like a more clear difference between fighting styles.

By saying this I don't mean to say that the changes are justified, what I mean is that I don't see it fair that THF should have same singletarget dps as twf and also have the benefits of glancing blows against many targets which actually gives a **** high DPS in the calculators if more then 1 target is calculated.

It's obvious that they wanted to take away some of the benefits of twitching however I am also not sure if this is the way to go.

Cheers!

/Khierra

Interesting arguments for both styles...
Weapon effects and double tactics vs AOE damage...

IMHO i consider both avantages to be relatively equal, and reason enough to pick either style, therefore single target dps should be relatively equal.

Funny that epic makes both advantages effectively obsolete...
You cant vorpal, banish or stat damage in epic... and a THF that grabs 3 mobs = dead

[R0cksteady]

I'd be fine with THF and TWF doing the same damage if they dropped the dex requirement. You can say the dex requirement gives you a better reflex save. That's fine, so put the stats into dex anyway. But give us that option. I would rather put those points into intelligence for extra skill points and combat expertise, or even Wisdom for Will saves.

[Winteris]

I'd be fine with THF and TWF doing the same damage if they dropped the dex requirement. You can say the dex requirement gives you a better reflex save. That's fine, so put the stats into dex anyway. But give us that option. I would rather put those points into intelligence for extra skill points and combat expertise, or even Wisdom for Will saves.

Ac is useless according to u, so for what whould u take Combat expertise ? Will saves r also overestimated, they shortened the duration of holds, commands etc casted by mobs, also almost every spell can be countered by buff which makes u immune to them.

Skill points r nice but there is not many usefull skills that u cant cover anyway, in what skill would u put that extra skill points, haggle or move silently ?

Dex requirement is a pain for few builds in game, pallys, batle clerics/fvs, maybe fighters, rest benefits from dex because they need ranged to-hit and/or have evasion. Im not arguing that THF should have exactly the same damage output as TWF, but i think taking away glancing blows while moving is too big nerf. They punish active, skilfull players and reward standing still and ability to hold right mouse button, thats ridiculous imho.

[Borror0]

I somehow managed to miss this thread until today. +1 to Monkey_Archer, Lithic, Anthios888 for making this thread an interesting read.

[R0cksteady]

Ac is useless according to u, so for what whould u take Combat expertise ? Will saves r also overestimated, they shortened the duration of holds, commands etc casted by mobs, also almost every spell can be countered by buff which makes u immune to them.

Skill points r nice but there is not many usefull skills that u cant cover anyway, in what skill would u put that extra skill points, haggle or move silently ?

Dex requirement is a pain for few builds in game, pallys, batle clerics/fvs, maybe fighters, rest benefits from dex because they need ranged to-hit and/or have evasion. Im not arguing that THF should have exactly the same damage output as TWF, but i think taking away glancing blows while moving is too big nerf. They punish active, skilfull players and reward standing still and ability to hold right mouse button, thats ridiculous imho.

Combat expertise opens up improved trip. Skill points are nice for Balance, Jump, UMD and intimidate. AC isn't useless according to me, AC IS useless, for me. If someone WANTED that AC or reflex saves boost, nothing is stopping them from taking that dex anyway. But a lot of builds are better off with those points elsewhere.

And I'm not arguing that they should have taken away glancing blows. I'm arguing that they did need to nerf THF to keep it balanced. I would have done it another way, but I'm happy as long as they did give it some kind of nerf.

[Persnoody]

Ac is useless according to u, so for what whould u take Combat expertise ? Will saves r also overestimated, they shortened the duration of holds, commands etc casted by mobs, also almost every spell can be countered by buff which makes u immune to them.

Skill points r nice but there is not many usefull skills that u cant cover anyway, in what skill would u put that extra skill points, haggle or move silently ?

Dex requirement is a pain for few builds in game, pallys, batle clerics/fvs, maybe fighters, rest benefits from dex because they need ranged to-hit and/or have evasion. Im not arguing that THF should have exactly the same damage output as TWF, but i think taking away glancing blows while moving is too big nerf. They punish active, skilfull players and reward standing still and ability to hold right mouse button, thats ridiculous imho.

I to think it is stupid to remove glancing blows while moving, that aspect is just part of that build, it's what they contribute to the party, my main aspect... is a dex build twf, there are many people who invest a lot of their time learning the style of that class. I've tested my monk on Lamannia and I must say, he feels like a slug, it's to the point where you just stop and let them come around you and deal with it like that, I don't find that fun, and I don't think you do either. We need to be free to jump around and fight like a monkey.

I'd be fine with THF and TWF doing the same damage if they dropped the dex requirement. You can say the dex requirement gives you a better reflex save. That's fine, so put the stats into dex anyway. But give us that option. I would rather put those points into intelligence for extra skill points and combat expertise, or even Wisdom for Will saves.

Well I just have to say, needing int for combat exp is a requirement just like dex is for twf, changing that like you say would be just as lame as what is going on now.

[R0cksteady]

I to think it is stupid to remove glancing blows while moving, that aspect is just part of that build, it's what they contribute to the party, my main aspect... is a dex build twf, there are many people who invest a lot of their time learning the style of that class. I've tested my monk on Lamannia and I must say, he feels like a slug, it's to the point where you just stop and let them come around you and deal with it like that, I don't find that fun, and I don't think you do either. We need to be free to jump around and fight like a monkey.





Well I just have to say, needing int for combat exp is a requirement just like dex is for twf, changing that like you say would be just as lame as what is going on now.

I'd only support dropping the dex requirement if they matched THF and TWF DPS, which they didn't do. So I'm find with the way it is now.

[bobbryan2]

So twitching now gives practically the same benefit as not twitching and you can save 3 feats?

So barbarians don't have to really choose between stunning blow and toughness now? Seems like a pretty slick deal to THF.

[Borror0]

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next update, the benefits of the THF feat chain were given to every THF builds by default and the feats were removed.

[R0cksteady]

So twitching now gives practically the same benefit as not twitching and you can save 3 feats?

So barbarians don't have to really choose between stunning blow and toughness now? Seems like a pretty slick deal to THF.

That's just not true. Twiching gives slightly higher DPS to single enemies, glancing blows will do more for groups.

[bobbryan2]

You r the walking proof for what they make to that game. You r arguing that TWF should have higher DPS because of bigger investments which TWF'ers have to make but you are not noticing what other advantages they have while dual-wielding. So lets enumerate it:

-they can dualwield weapons with on-crit or on-hit effects (paralyzing, banishers, vorpals, smiters etc) that was an advantage till recently released epic content. Those weapons r effective till Vale or even till VoD

- they can use weapon with +trip or +stun bonuses and in other hand any other weapon, bonus from one hand counts toward hits form other hand (also seeker effect)

- with careful timing they have double chance to trip, stun, smite (if pally), asasinate (if rog) mobs

- higher dex is great for reflex save, which helps non-evasion chars as well, save made for some spells or traps = half damage taken, thats huge, barely noone notice it because ppl tends to gimp their dex stat if they have no evasion

- higher dex mean better to-hit with ranged weapons, which counts not only on rangers or splashed builds, ppl laugh about throwing weapons but they can be fairly effective sometimes, check prices on AH if u dont believe me

- AC is useless on higher levels, but some clases have potential to have meaningful AC up to vale and shroud even w/o much grinding

is that not enough advantages to dualwield ?

Additionally, maxing con or str gives u in reallity not much advantage its 1,5 damage more from str and 20hp more from con, is that really what makes char good or not for u ?

No.. those are not enough advantages to dualwield.

-The 'careful timing' thing doesn't apply anymore.
-You don't "get" extra AC or reflex... you're spending the 6-10 starting points on it. Up to a third of your total build points are spent on TWF.
-And the extra effects are pretty meaningless at end game.

In fact... the added bonus from STR and CON, while you say it's slight, is infinitely more useful in epic content than any bonus a TWF gets.

[bobbryan2]

That's just not true. Twiching gives slightly higher DPS to single enemies, glancing blows will do more for groups.

And would you rather have a couple extra points of damage versus large groups of enemies... or +70 hp?

The point is that you can twitch and save yourself upwards of 3 feats. Or hell.. just take 2 of the feats for group attacking.