Twitch THF is dead - TWF now reigns supreme

[Ethias]

It's fun. It's cheap. It's still great on hybrid builds like favored souls...

The only FvS that benefits from Greatswords at all is a Warforged. Any other race/deity combination would be served with another weapon probably save maybe Silver Flame's longbow stuff...

[Monkey_Archer]

It's a good game decision to keep twf ahead of thf in dps, especially since it's been that way for a VERY long time, and a lot of peopel have built their characters around that concept. There are more costs stat-wise and equipment-wise to twf than thf, and while twf also has an edge for effect weapons, it's still 2x as hard to equip for both effects and dps sets.

I completely agree... but as a counter point, just as many people have designed characters around the concept that THFs can stay mobile and still do good dps

[Emili]

naaa. The difference is in the fact that the khopeh is the only weapon type that has more than a x20 crit threat range AND more than a x2 multiplier. All the other weapon types either have more threat but stay x2 or a higher multiplier but a 20 threat.

This is sans named items, of course. We are talking about weapon type here. I think the epic khopesh can stay x3 - just nerf the un-named ones in that weapon category to x2

I dont mind that eSOS gets beat out by epic chaos blades, but I do mind than an epic named item gets beat out by 2 schlub khopesh that anyone can make.

No not really if you checked the off-hand procs a lot comes from there and the shear fact that the sequences are different in meter... If you compared a scimi to falchion the scimi be ahead if you compared a GS dwarf axe to Greataxe guess what? While khopesh pulls ahead is the equivalent of 1.5 ave swings...

In practice however the DPS of the khopesh goes down... you see go beat on Harry on elite and see how many criticals are resisted ... gets worse on Horoth. Among trash mob matters little as both weapons deal so closely within a swing. Until you're on horoth for a minute you start to realize what's going on. There are plenty more to weapons in game than ( ) x...

Nerfing Khopesh would produce humans with dwarf axes and heavy picks. Elves would stay with scimis and rapiers and course dwarves could always dual axes ...

[Lithic]

Interesting point... just for comparison:

TWF Scimitars: 399.86 dps
THF Falchion: 373.32 dps

Correct me if I am wrong, but a THF character achieves those numbers while twiching, and hence gets no glancing blows anyway, so can drop the 2HF feats?

That would mean spending 3 feat slots would result in a gain of only 7%. I'm not sure many would bother with 2WF anymore if thats all you get (plus need dex, plus at least double grind).

[Visty]

Correct me if I am wrong, but a THF character achieves those numbers while twiching, and hence gets no glancing blows anyway, so can drop the 2HF feats?

That would mean spending 3 feat slots would result in a gain of only 7%. I'm not sure many would bother with 2WF anymore if thats all you get (plus need dex, plus at least double grind).

i doubt those are twitching numbers as the OP shows that autoattack gives way more damage

[Corino]

I ran the numbers for 20 barb using a falchion...using the same calculations. Let me know if anything is off, but it looks like falchion has the edge on greatsword (for comparing purposes).

THF base Damage
7 Base Falchion
5 Enhancement
37 Strength mod
22 PA
2 FB belt
9 Warchanter
1 Prayer
---
81
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
21 vicious
---
117

Glancing blows
37.7 Base damage (83+30 / 3)
21 vicious
1.4 holy (20% proc)
0.5 slicing
0.7 acid
---
61.3

THF crits
178 (445 19-20) Base (83+6 seeker x 4)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
22 acid burst/blast
---
234 (501 19-20)


13 hits * 117 damage = 1521
14.25 glancing * 61.3 damage= 873.525
4 Crits * 234 damage = 936
2 Crits * 501 damage = 1002

(1521+873.525+1938) / 20 swings = 216.62 average damage per swing
(1521+1938) / 20 swings = 172.95 average damage without glancing blows

216.62 * 105 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 379.085 dps autoattack
172.95 * 129 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 371.778 dps twitch attacking

[R0cksteady]

Correct me if I am wrong, but a THF character achieves those numbers while twiching, and hence gets no glancing blows anyway, so can drop the 2HF feats?

That would mean spending 3 feat slots would result in a gain of only 7%. I'm not sure many would bother with 2WF anymore if thats all you get (plus need dex, plus at least double grind).

Yeah but that's comparing to the 4th or 5th best one hander. It's a much wider difference with some of the better one handers, or some of the ones that get good with racial bonuses.

[Lithic]

Yeah but that's comparing to the 4th or 5th best one hander. It's a much wider difference with some of the better one handers, or some of the ones that get good with racial bonuses.

If you ignore racial bonuses (and for this type of comparison you have to), scimetars/rapiers are the second best one handers right after the khopesh. Followed by kukris IIRC.

[R0cksteady]

If you ignore racial bonuses (and for this type of comparison you have to), scimetars/rapiers are the second best one handers right after the khopesh. Followed by kukris IIRC.

I'm pretty sure Heavy picks, Light Picks are ahead of Schimis.

[Monkey_Archer]

THF crits
356 Base (83+6 seeker x 4)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
22 acid burst/blast
---
412

FB only adds +3 multiplier on 19-20. So to calculate correctly a falchion would either be:
15-18 x2, 19-20 x5
OR
15-20 x3

[Sweyn]

Here's a question :

Based on other people's findings, Twitch attacking with certain weapons turns out to be a tad bit higher dps over one minute. But say it takes you 30 seconds to dps down a mob, would it be more dps to not twitch since the increase of attacks while twitching isn't at it's full?

Dunno really how to word it, whether it would have no difference or not? I'm not the best at understanding the mechanics

[Corino]

sorry, I was pasting and forgot to break it down...I'll go fix it now...

[Emili]

I'm pretty sure Heavy picks, Light Picks are ahead of Schimis.

Heavy picks are ... deathnips killer. GS yes.

[Cyr]

yes that looks correct.



You heard it here first folks....
The epic SOS is only 5% more dps then dual min 2 khopeshes!!!

Even better... why grind for an eSOS when dual Lightning strikes are just as good (449.52 dps)

Well because one requires 4 more feats in the build and one does not...TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Khopesh feat or 5 if you include OTWF.

So it's 4 dual shard weapons (2 lit 2's, 2 min 2's) for fort case/no fort case and four feats versus epic SoS and 1 dual shard (1 min 2).

[Emili]

Well because one requires 4 more feats in the build and one does not...TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Khopesh feat or 5 if you include OTWF.

So it's 4 dual shard weapons (2 lit 2's, 2 min 2's) for fort case/no fort case and four feats versus epic SoS and 1 dual shard (1 min 2).

And that is why am comfortable with such... I mean seriously I've five feats invested and eight dual shard GS khopeshes between my twf fighter, twf ranger, twf pally... my thf barb has a lot less invested in build planning and in items (she's two dual shard greataxes and a tri pos maul and a tri pos Great sword and a incidiary falchion) then my fighter and still is more than respectable in actual gameplay. Not one of you give the calcs when the tables are turned to 50% fort or 100% fort... then you see the weapons actually switch in effectiveness.

[Hydro]

Honestly for anyone that is going to grind for an epic Sos could easily grind for shroud weapons.

Grinding shroud is not hard, and doing so does not mean you deserve higher dps.

Honestly I don't really care if Twf has better potential then Thf it's the fact an epic weapon is no better then an easily farmed shroud weapon.

[GwenJynx]

I think my suggestion for Khopesh was

1d8 19/x2 (20/x3)

Improved Crit or Keen

1d8 17-18/x2 (19-20/x3)

so it has the Crit range and multiplier of a Longsword and a Battleaxe. Would lower its DPS a bit over all but is still superior to the Non-Exotic Weapons.. just not as superior

Aesop

I think this is an excellent solution to Khopeshes

[Lithic]

I'm pretty sure Heavy picks, Light Picks are ahead of Schimis.

Heavy Pick: 1d6 + X (X= str, power attack, bard songs, holy, other non-burst effects)

On 20 swings:
1x miss
17x 1d6 + X
2x [(1d6+X+seeker)x4 + 3d10] (the 3d10 is typical elemental burst effect)

Total 17d6 + 17x + 8d6 + 8seeker + 8x +6d10= 25d6 + 25x + 8 seeker + 6d10


Rapier: 1d6 + X (X= same as X in HP calc)
On 20 swings:
1x miss
13x 1d6+X
6x [(1d6+X+seeker)x2 + 1d10] (the 1d10 is elemental burst effect)

Total: 13d6+13x +12d6+12x+12seeker+6d10 = 25d6+25x+12seeker+6d10

If you eliminate commonalities, you get rapier (12seeker) vs pick (8 seeker)

Rapier/scimetar is therefore better than picks if (seeker > 1), which it will be for any serious melee.

There are 2 factors that favor rapier/scimetars over picks. Seeker (as shown above), and holy or pure good burst effects. Elemental burst are a draw (as shown above), but for holy/good bursts you get:

Pickes:
2crits x 5d6 = 10d6 burst damage

Rapiers:
6crits x 3d6 = 18d6 burst damage

[DoctorWhofan]

Good.

+1 rep for FIGURING THINGS OUT and not screaming Nerf! THIS is what I expect from this community.

[Sweyn]

Honestly for anyone that is going to grind for an epic Sos could easily grind for shroud weapons.

Grinding shroud is not hard, and doing so does not mean you deserve higher dps.

Honestly I don't really care if Twf has better potential then Thf it's the fact an epic weapon is no better then an easily farmed shroud weapon.

Agreed, also.. you don't have to grind for greensteel at all. You can purchase everything you need (except the shards) from the AH or other ppl. But you are unable to buy the Shard, Seal, or Weapon for the SoS, making it harder to get for some people.