Twitch THF is dead - TWF now reigns supreme

[Monkey_Archer]

For anyone who is interested in how the nerfs affect THF vs TWF.
For anyone who thinks TWF is loosing the most.
For the devs who claim this nerf is going balance TWF an THF.

THF autoattack: 363.2 dps
THF twitch: 351.6 dps
TWF: 426 dps

Prenerf numbers:
THF twitch: 415.8 dps
TWF: 468.97 dps

Yes, that is indeed over 15% more dps for the TWF barb, even after the so called TWF nerf...

Using the best THF class in the game.
Calculated by hand because this is important.


Attacks per minute (as posted here)
110 TWF hasted
105 THF hasted
129 THF twitch hasted


Strength
23 Base
9 item
2 tome
2 capstone
2 FB belt
---
38
12 Barbarian rage
2 Frenzy
4 Death frenzy
2 Rage spell
2 madstone
---
60 Strength

---------------------------------------------------------------------

THF base Damage
10.5 Base Greataxe
5 Enhancement
37 Stength mod
22 PA
2 FB belt
9 Warchanter
1 Prayer
---
86.5
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
21 vicious
---
120.5

Glancing blows
39 Base damage (86.5+30 / 3)
21 vicious
1.4 holy (20% proc)
0.5 slicing
0.7 acid
---
62.6

THF crits
555 Base (86.5+6seeker x 6)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
22 acid burst/blast
---
611


17 hits * 120.5 damage = 2048.5
14.25 glancing * 62.6 damage= 892.05
2 Crits * 611 damage = 1222

(1222+892.05+2048.5) / 20 swings = 208.1 average damage per swing
(1222+2048.5) / 20 swings = 163.525 average amage without glancing blows

208.1 * 105 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 363.2 dps autoattack
163.525 * 129 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 351.6 dps twitch attacking

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TWF base damage
5.5 Base Khopesh
5 Enhancment
25/12 Strength mod
11 PA
2 FB belt
9 Warchanter
1 Prayer
---
58.5/45.5 (mainhand/offhand)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
---
92.5/79.5 (mainhand/offhand)


Mainhand crits
290.25 base (58.5+6seeker x 4.5)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
22 acid burst/blast
---
346.25

Offhand Crits
231.75 base (45.5+6seekr x 4.5)
21 vicious
7 holy
2.5 slicing
3.5 acid
22 acid burst/blast
---
287.75

15 mainhand hits * 92.5 = 1387.5
4 mainhand crits * 346.25 = 1385
15 offhand hits * 79.5 * 80% proc = 954
4 offhand crits * 287.75 * 80% proc = 920.8

(1387.5+1385+954+920.8) / 20 swings = 232.4 average damage per swing

232.4 * 110 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 426 dps

[Gol]

Would you mind lowering that Strength score to the max a Barb 8 / Ranger 12 could reach, and recalcing with 100% offhand proc rate?

Also, might want to consider the Exploiter vs FE, which will have 105% main / 100% off.

[krud]

Thank you for posting this. If those are the generally agreed upon stats, buffs, and items then I can plug in values for various builds/styles. I used values that weren't all that far off from what you used and got assaulted for having numbers that were "too low", and "not properly geared up for dps", yet they still gave about the same % lead to twf over thf.

[Anthios888]

Would you mind lowering that Strength score to the max a Barb 8 / Ranger 12 could reach, and recalcing with 100% offhand proc rate?

Also, might want to consider the Exploiter vs FE, which will have 105% main / 100% off.

I think Monkey_Archer is looking to compare the value of a particular toon using two weapon fighting instead of two handed fighting. A tempest build would be very unlikely to use two handed fighting.

Every build is going to have lots of iterations to give particular advantages, but this is a baseline.

No surprises here, although I still feel both build styles bring a lot to the table.

[Do'Urden]

Best post since the U5 announcement. If you don't mind the trouble, it might also be helpful for context to post the pre-nerf DPS calcs in the same spot.

[Grendyll]

I would be interested to see the calc done with ESoS as well.

So, TWF has about a 17% damage advantage over 2HF?

Does that seem reasonable given the increased feats invested, double the weapon grind, and DEX requirement? I am curious what folks think?

Edit to add : what difference does the warchanter buff add? I am not sure it is safe to assume that full specced warchanter is always present.

[Gol]

I plugged in numbers for an Exploiter and 40 -> 42 strength is the passing point with the aforementioned THF Twitch Barb.

[grodon9999]

Would you mind lowering that Strength score to the max a Barb 8 / Ranger 12 could reach, and recalcing with 100% offhand proc rate?

Also, might want to consider the Exploiter vs FE, which will have 105% main / 100% off.

I calc'd my Exploiter, he's not "maxxed" by the obscene definitions that people use in DPS calcs. At a 34 STR:

Damage
Base 10
STR 12
Magic 5
FE 12
Rams might 2
PA 5
rage 1
Titans 3
Song 9
Prayer 1
Madstone 2

I get a DPS of 326 with the current attack numbers of 110 main and 105 off hand attacks per minute.

EDIT: Forgot acid and sneak attack: 377

[kernal42]

208.1 * 105 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 363.2 dps autoattack
163.525 * 129 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 351.6 dps twitch attacking
[/COLOR]

So, if you're only concerned about primary-target damage, you suffer only a very small dps penalty by completely bypassing the 2hf feat chain and twitching, freeing up three precious, precious feats.

Neat.

-Kernal

[Aspenor]

May I ask how this means that twitch thf is "dead?"

[grodon9999]

I plugged in numbers for an Exploiter and 40 -> 42 strength is the passing point with the aforementioned THF Twitch Barb.

Interesting . . . have does a 42 STR ranger compare to an 60 STR bard with the live numbers?

[Grendyll]

I have another question.

The changes stipulate that glancing blows no longer happen while "moving". But the mechanics of twitching are designed to take advantage of the breaking the "standing still" attack chain. Basically, you don't want to execute the moving attack chain at all. You want to execute the first two attacks in the standing chain, then move to break that chain, then execute the first two attacks again, over and over. Net attacks per unit time increases because the delay between attacks 1 and 2 is short with a long wind-up before attack 3, so you skip the long wind up attack and recurse over the first two short ones repeatedly. But, if you are executing the standing attack chain, shouldn't a glancing blow still happen? Or does it register that you are moving somehow still while executing the standing attacks, even though you haven't moved enough to switch to the moving attack chain yet, and cancel the glancing blow?

I have to admit I am not very practiced at twitching yet, so I may be missing something.

[Chai]

May I ask how this means that twitch thf is "dead?"

Yeah I was wondering the same thing.

I think this is due to people not knowing what the "max DPS" build really is anymore, who are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, trying to figure it out so they can attempt to get back up on that numbers throne again.

[kaelis]

May I ask how this means that twitch thf is "dead?"

Because after months of gloating about being the best of the best, and absolutely max dps, the dev's finally clued in and realigned the spectrum of power in the name of balance and their scapegoat "lag"- secretly meaning they were tired of some certain someones gloatings. Hereby irritating the panties of all these "max dps" best of the best, epicly built melee characters, causing them to cry d00m, and reign havoc down upon these forums.


As an aside, and to give my post an actual positive purpose:

Twitching will continue, in a few months time the dev's may get back to 'fixing' your glancing blows, by changing the mechanics - to how they are described as working, a set % based off of feats, enhancements and capstones instead of a set glancing blow off of attack whatever. So let me just say; patience is a virtue. Pale masters had to wait (and most are still waiting, or dead from holding their breath) But they did get a boost this update with new spells.

[Aspenor]

Yeah I was wondering the same thing.

I think this is due to people not knowing what the "max DPS" build really is anymore, who are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, trying to figure it out so they can attempt to get back up on that numbers throne again.

meh, on my only thf'r i will continue to twitch when i can hit reliably, and say screw glancing blows because i don't have any thf feats to begin with. Wall of Fire *******!

[Cyr]

So 110 attacks/minute is how many main hand attacks you are calculating as the number in the new mod?

[grodon9999]

Because after months of gloating about being the best of the best, and absolutely max dps, the dev's finally clued in and realigned the spectrum of power in the name of balance and their scapegoat "lag"- secretly meaning they were tired of some certain someones gloatings. Hereby irritating the panties of all these "max dps" best of the best, epicly built melee characters, causing them to cry d00m, and reign havoc down upon these forums.


As an aside, and to give my post an actual positive purpose:

Twitching will continue, in a few months time the dev's may get back to 'fixing' your glancing blows, by changing the mechanics - to how they are described as working, a set % based off of feats, enhancements and capstones instead of a set glancing blow off of attack whatever. So let me just say; patience is a virtue. Pale masters had to wait (and most are still waiting, or dead from holding their breath) But they did get a boost this update with new spells.

But weren't the powers that be saying TWF was too powerful and needed to be toned down for the sake of balance?

[Aspenor]

But weren't the powers that be saying TWF was too powerful and needed to be toned down for the sake of balance?

Technically it was toned down, and so was THF. The argument that twice the time spent on weapons, twice the inventory slots, more feats involved, etc. etc. ad nauseum still holds.

[Hydro]

Ok now the sky really is falling a THF barbarian is 60+ dps lower then a TWF barb.. On top of that the THF dps just gets lower the second you have to move...

Twf barbs were never considered the top dps Twf, I would love to see these numbers againt a pure fighter or monster build.

Heck I'm pretty certain my dark monk will out dps my epic Sos barb if things stay the same. 500-1500 point strike is probably going to land monks as top dps next patch..

Wow did I just say that.... *** happened.....

[Cyr]

Don't worry Hydro. The OP did not use your epic SoS in the calculation.