Twitch THF is dead - TWF now reigns supreme

[Monkey_Archer]

May I ask how this means that twitch thf is "dead?"

Because 363.2 is a bigger number then 351.6

[Monkey_Archer]

Best post since the U5 announcement. If you don't mind the trouble, it might also be helpful for context to post the pre-nerf DPS calcs in the same spot.

Prenerf numbers:

THF twitch: 415.8 dps
TWF: 468.97 dps

added to op..

[Aspenor]

Because 363.2 is a bigger number then 351.6

I must be dyslexic or something, I didn't even notice that.

edit: nevermind, removal of glancing blows

[Lorien_the_First_One]

/chuckles

Someone want to cross post this to the "TWF is dead, THF Barbs now reign supreme" threads?

[Aesop]

hey monkey...

what woulld happen to twitch if they got 25% Glancing Blows?

Aesop

[Grendyll]

Don't worry Hydro. The OP did not use your epic SoS in the calculation.

I think I did this correctly, feel free to double check :

THF Damage with ESoS
17.5 Base
10 Enhancement
37 Stength mod
22 PA
2 FB belt
9 Warchanter
1 Prayer
---
98.5
21 vicious
---
119.5

Glancing blows
42.8 Base damage (98.5+30 / 3)
21 vicious
---
63.8

THF crits (15-18)
313.5 Base (98.5+6seeker x 3)
21 vicious
---
334.5

THF crits (19-20)
627 Base (98.5+6seeker x 6)
21 vicious
---
648

13 hits * 119.5 damage = 1553.5
14.25 glancing * 63.8 damage = 909.15
4 Crits * 334.5 damage = 1338
2 Crits * 648 damage = 1296

(1553.5+909.15+1338+1296) / 20 swings = 254.8 average damage per swing
(1553.5+1338+1296) / 20 swings = 209.4 average damage without glancing blows

254.8 * 105 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 445.9 dps autoattack
209.4 * 129 attacks per minute / 60 seconds = 450.2 dps twitch attacking

So for the ESoS, twitch is still slightly better...and higher than TWF by around 5%.

[Chai]

/chuckles

Someone want to cross post this to the "TWF is dead, THF Barbs now reign supreme" threads?

Why dont we just let Pony Boy go so he can tell all his greaser friends to meet us socs in the parking lot for a DPS broadway style dance off marathon, complete with bicycles, highwater corduroy slacks, and bobby socks.

[Anthios888]

Monkey_Archer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that barbarian two weapon fighting with khopeshes (especially with additional +damage or sneak attack boosters that favor extra attack swings) was already on top of two-handed fighting, despite the fervent 2HF lobbying community on the DDO forums.

This isn't exactly new. Neither style is bad here... people played 2HF barbarians for years even during the 2wf crit rage craze in mod 6. Whatever floats your boat.

We're comparing greensteels to greensteels, and most people who have done the math agree that two weapon fighting with greensteels is going to outdamage two handed fighting against a single target. When you get to epic gear, the numbers on both sides change and become heavily gear-dependent.

[Anthios888]

So for the ESoS, twitch is still slightly better...and higher than TWF by around 5%.

this

[Monkey_Archer]

I think I did this correctly, feel free to double check :

yes that looks correct.

So for the ESoS, twitch is still slightly better...and higher than TWF by around 5%.

You heard it here first folks....
The epic SOS is only 5% more dps then dual min 2 khopeshes!!!

Even better... why grind for an eSOS when dual Lightning strikes are just as good (449.52 dps)

[Anthios888]

yes that looks correct.



You heard it here first folks....
The epic SOS is only 5% more dps then dual min 2 khopeshes!!!

And, in turn, lightning II khopeshes and epic chaosblades are going to top the epic SoS by a good 10-20% depending on the build.

As a powergamer trying to throw a half dual shard greensteel weapons plus epic chaosblades on characters... it's a lot easier to beat the SoS on paper than it is in practice. But, it's a possibility many players overlook for the sheer plus ten-ness of it.

P.S. None of these calcs include tempest or ravager set, which really favor glancing blows -- that's going to push your untwitch sos number above the twitch number and give you much better results against realistic multiple mob scenarios.

[Consumer]

Comparing a THF Barbs numbers to a THF Fighters numbers would be good but only because the Fighter now completely destroys the Barbs DPS.

[R0cksteady]

yes that looks correct.



You heard it here first folks....
The epic SOS is only 5% more dps then dual min 2 khopeshes!!!

What about Lit II kopeshes?

[Monkey_Archer]

Monkey_Archer can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that barbarian two weapon fighting with khopeshes (especially with additional +damage or sneak attack boosters that favor extra attack swings) was already on top of two-handed fighting, despite the fervent 2HF lobbying community on the DDO forums.

That is correct... but only by about 10%.
Fortification targets, lack of SA damage, longer range, an mobile combat gave THF an edge that could easily make up that 10% though.

Now, with THF being more like 17% behind and completely loosing its mobile combat advantage i dont see it competing as well anymore...

[Gol]

You heard it here first folks....
The epic SOS is only 5% more dps then dual min 2 khopeshes!!!

Even better... why grind for an eSOS when dual Lightning strikes are just as good (449.52 dps)

Even more reason to change the now-nerfed eSoS to have 2 red slots.

[R0cksteady]

That is correct... but only by about 10%.
Fortification targets, lack of SA damage, longer range, an mobile combat gave THF an edge that could easily make up that 10% though.

Now, with THF being more like 17% behind and completely loosing its mobile combat advantage i dont see it competing as well anymore...

I don't think the intention was ever to make THF the same as TWF. The devs wanted to close the gap a bit, between REGULAR THF and TWF, not the THF glitch known as twitching.

There's no reason for THF to be really close to TWF, when THF has a lot less investment, and glancing blows for groups of mobs.

[Mellkor]

Or better, just leave the ESoS as is. no reason to nerf it.

[Corino]

Would you mind posting the calculations for THF Barb wearing Falchion instead of greataxe?

[R0cksteady]

Even more reason to change the now-nerfed eSoS to have 2 red slots.

Wouldn't that allow you to make it silver and good damage? That's a little to OP. The SoS is great the way it is, being by far the best two hander.

[Anthios888]

Now, with THF being more like 17% behind and completely loosing its mobile combat advantage i dont see it competing as well anymore...

It's fun. It's cheap. It's still great on hybrid builds like favored souls and bards. It works on multiple targets if you're into glancing blows. The to-hit is better, now that twitching is less mandatory -- and that remains a huge deal for epic.

And, I predict it is relatively future proofed, as there is tons of potential for adding extra damage to glancing blows, to fixing barbarian capstone and great weapon aptitude.

This thread also does a really nice job of illustrating that epic SoS is still very much worthwhile and represents a huge DPS increase for many of the folks running around with their mod 7 mineral II greataxes.

p.s. I'd still take the 18 barbarian / 2 rogue khopesh queen like I always favored, but I've got nothing against anyone who still likes their 2hf gimps