Twitch THF is dead - TWF now reigns supreme

[joneb1999]

And would you rather have a couple extra points of damage versus large groups of enemies... or +70 hp?

The point is that you can twitch and save yourself upwards of 3 feats. Or hell.. just take 2 of the feats for group attacking.

Dude Iloved my glancing blows and movement combined. Its what made 2hf worthwhile for me now no chance.

The balance has effectively done a stealth nerf to thf to make it barely worthwhile as pure dps was the only advantage. The feats are useless and every warrior type will run around with 2wf when they get the chance for all the benefits! Why do devs not see this when it didnt take long for the community to see it!

Anyone who thinks the new nerf is acceptable and can see the imbalance when every detail is weighed up are in complete ignorance to the damage of the games value on having a variety of styles worthwhile or to other players who want to play a viable different style.

BTW I have 2wf rogue and a 2hf barb and a s+b cleric who uses a dwarven axe which now gets glancing blows. Im up for variety but if I stay around in this environment Iwill have to change my barb to twf!

[BlackSteel]

Dude Iloved my glancing blows and movement combined. Its what made 2hf worthwhile for me now no chance.

The balance has effectively done a stealth nerf to thf to make it barely worthwhile as pure dps was the only advantage. The feats are useless and every warrior type will run around with 2wf when they get the chance for all the benefits! Why do devs not see this when it didnt take long for the community to see it!

Anyone who thinks the new nerf is acceptable and can see the imbalance when every detail is weighed up are in complete ignorance to the damage of the games value on having a variety of styles worthwhile or to other players who want to play a viable different style.

BTW I have 2wf rogue and a 2hf barb and a s+b cleric who uses a dwarven axe which now gets glancing blows. Im up for variety but if I stay around in this environment Iwill have to change my barb to twf!

best thing I can recommend if you dont like it, is if you happen to be VIP, cancel your subscription, atleast for the time being (you'll still get to play till the month/6month expires with full benefits) atleast that way you can get to fill out an exit survey. Which those things are one of the reasons we've seen such sweeping changes to the game over the past year, thanks to the quick in/out crowd who didnt find game newb friendly but were kind enough to detail an exit survey. So we get dungeon scaling/hirelings/multiple low level modules/dumbing down of end game content.

mention the combat changes when you 'leave', heck you can always on your last day for a month, then cancel it again.

[Sweyn]

Why does people only look at the dps against a single target?

Because that's all the matters endgame. Raid bosses are single target, epic mobs are stunned and you focus on the "Single Target" that is stunned. The "DPS against mulitiple targets" argument is only valid for trash, which dies so quick you ignore that aspect of THF.

[Aesop]

The OP uses the twitch attack rate, which is significantly faster then moving and attacking.
To keep all three roughly equal in dps, standing still would have 75% glancing, moving would have 50% glancing, and twitch would have maybe 5%.

As i see it, the removal of moving glancing blows was a direct nerf on twitch (to make sure it wouldn't out dps TWF) but went too far, and unfortunately hit mobile THF even harder.

25% glancing blow proc rate while moving could be a good compromise.

ah ok so moving while attacking is slower than twitch over all but faster than standing.

I must have missed the memo thanks

My other thought was a more difficult change, and that was to change the timing on the attack sequence. As the cycle repeats the time between the 4th attack in one cycle and the first attack in the second should be slightly reduced while the attack between the first attack in a cycle and the second should be slightly increased.

This would reduce the effectiveness of twitch and moving slightly but keep glancing blows

Aesop

[joneb1999]

best thing I can recommend if you dont like it, is if you happen to be VIP, cancel your subscription, atleast for the time being (you'll still get to play till the month/6month expires with full benefits) atleast that way you can get to fill out an exit survey. Which those things are one of the reasons we've seen such sweeping changes to the game over the past year, thanks to the quick in/out crowd who didnt find game newb friendly but were kind enough to detail an exit survey. So we get dungeon scaling/hirelings/multiple low level modules/dumbing down of end game content.

mention the combat changes when you 'leave', heck you can always on your last day for a month, then cancel it again.

Im waiting on GW2 coming and Im jumping ship for definite even though one thing I hate about GW2 is as a once dedicated GW player but not elitist I wont have the benefits that allow me special privileges with the new game. That sore point is outweighed by paying vip status for a game where I know not whether Im coming or going with nerfs without offering a free way to fix your toons due to it and I feel the game shop is like a drug dealer, now you are hooked to the game it offers you a quick fix if you can afford it.

[Winteris]

No.. those are not enough advantages to dualwield.

-The 'careful timing' thing doesn't apply anymore.
-You don't "get" extra AC or reflex... you're spending the 6-10 starting points on it. Up to a third of your total build points are spent on TWF.
-And the extra effects are pretty meaningless at end game.

In fact... the added bonus from STR and CON, while you say it's slight, is infinitely more useful in epic content than any bonus a TWF gets.

careful timing does not apply, its dumbed down, now its random double or triple smite, another thing that required some skills nerfed

extra effects r not meaningful in endgame thats right, but its devs fault that they designed it in such faulty way, i hope they get rid of whoever is designign quest now amd hire some creative ppl, also endgame is still maybe 10% of whole game, sure that it is most important part but u have to get there somehow

I repeat, devs r designing game bad, they r taking away every single abilty we can use, they took away 90% of game. Redesign game pls, not nerf another things

[Aesop]

No.. those are not enough advantages to dualwield.

-The 'careful timing' thing doesn't apply anymore.
-You don't "get" extra AC or reflex... you're spending the 6-10 starting points on it. Up to a third of your total build points are spent on TWF.
-And the extra effects are pretty meaningless at end game.

In fact... the added bonus from STR and CON, while you say it's slight, is infinitely more useful in epic content than any bonus a TWF gets.

Including More Damage more to hit or more HP and more Fort Saves.

saying 20 more hp is trying to reduce the actual numbers as its 20 more hp per 2 increases.

instead of a 14 Con having an 18 con means 40hp if WF theoretically upto 60hp and +3 Fort Saves

[joneb1999]

If the people championing twf are doing so because they want it more useful in epic then surely nerfing 2hf across the board is not making any difference but devs should work on fixing epic in regards to twf.

[Winteris]

Including More Damage more to hit or more HP and more Fort Saves.

saying 20 more hp is trying to reduce the actual numbers as its 20 more hp per 2 increases.

instead of a 14 Con having an 18 con means 40hp if WF theoretically upto 60hp and +3 Fort Saves

is 40hp like maybe 10% increase for today average melee class ? Its even less for WF btw. it is also less than difference between saved or not saved DBF in ToD.

[BlackSteel]

If the people championing twf are doing so because they want it more useful in epic then surely nerfing 2hf across the board is not making any difference but devs should work on fixing epic in regards to twf.

funny thing is that TWF'ers stun easier (two chances), and do more damage on stunned mobs (even compared to the prenerf eSoS) how is stunning better and doing more damage not useful in epic???

[Oran_Lathor]

Because that's all the matters endgame. Raid bosses are single target, epic mobs are stunned and you focus on the "Single Target" that is stunned. The "DPS against mulitiple targets" argument is only valid for trash, which dies so quick you ignore that aspect of THF.

True, yet in neither of those instances do you have to move. Stunned mobs and boxed-in bosses are both stationary; thus no change unless you were twitching.

People are exaggerating this. Sure you move in combat, but you don't move constantly. Move up to a mob, take 3-4 swings, move. Net loss, minimal.

THF does have an advantage over twf, as well: the actual, physical range of the weapons. I was in coalescence last night on my ranger and a stationary bat was sitting outside of my weapon range, biting me. I couldn't hit it without moving. A THFer could. Monks have it even worse in this regard.

Anyway, I was pretty cheesed about both changes originally as I think the live game has pretty decent balance. But at this point I"m just gonna wait and see.

[Monkey_Archer]

A couple fun facts for the TWF cost vs THF cost argument.

For the barb in the OP:
TWF khopesh with no feats: 297.1 dps
THF greataxe with no feats: 319.6 dps

TWF with GTWF: 426 dps
THF with GTHF: 363.2 dps

So..
The TWF spends 15 dexterity and 3 feats for a 43% increase in dps (also 43% increase while moving).
The THF spends 15 strength and 3 feats for a 14% increase in dps (0% increase while moving).

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next update, the benefits of the THF feat chain were given to every THF builds by default and the feats were removed.

I wouldn't be surprised if this happened either.

[R0cksteady]

A couple fun facts for the TWF cost vs THF cost argument.

For the barb in the OP:
TWF khopesh with no feats: 297.1 dps
THF greataxe with no feats: 319.6 dps

TWF with GTWF: 426 dps
THF with GTHF: 363.2 dps

So..
The TWF spends 15 dexterity and 3 feats for a 43% increase in dps (also 43% increase while moving).
The THF spends 15 strength and 3 feats for a 14% increase in dps (0% increase while moving).

17 dex for TWF. Also, THF isn't spending strength on those feats, every DPS based build has much higher than 15 strength, unless it's some kind of joke build.

[Monkey_Archer]

17 dex for TWF. Also, THF isn't spending strength on those feats, every DPS based build has much higher than 15 strength, unless it's some kind of joke build.

Some builds, such as fighting bards/clerics/fvs can actually meet the TWF requirements much easier (by going elf/halfling)... at least until we get half-orcs...

[BlackSteel]

17 dex for TWF. Also, THF isn't spending strength on those feats, every DPS based build has much higher than 15 strength, unless it's some kind of joke build.

I think the point of his post completely went over your head

its simply looking at what cost/benefit those 3 feats are giving you. And dont kid yourself about the dex investment, unless you're a 28 pointer, the dex investment is hogwash. the actual feats are the biggest investment in the build. which equates to one chain giving a 43% increase and the other only a 14%

if he pulled those numbers off a barbarian then the percent for THF is actually higher than it will be for every other class. Imagine a fighter or especially a rogue, I wouldnt be surprised to see THF ~10% and TWF just shy of 50%

[Sweyn]

17 dex for TWF. Also, THF isn't spending strength on those feats, every DPS based build has much higher than 15 strength, unless it's some kind of joke build.

You put in 17 dex when you create a TWF toon? Why can't ppl just think for once? Christ... you invest 15 dex.. and use a +2 tome for TWF..... 17, there ya go.. does everything have to be spelled out?

[Chai]

True, yet in neither of those instances do you have to move. Stunned mobs and boxed-in bosses are both stationary; thus no change unless you were twitching.

People are exaggerating this. Sure you move in combat, but you don't move constantly. Move up to a mob, take 3-4 swings, move. Net loss, minimal.

Incorrect.

I have been testing this on lammania and I have to say I disagree with you 110%.

Playing over there has made me see how much we actually do move constantly in combat. If you are not standing completely still, no glances. It is rare that my barbarian gets glancing blow damage anymore except on raid bosses and then, only if I choose not to twitch, and stand there.

Bottom line: You can nerf my numbers, but you cant nerf my playstyle, else I begin voting with my wallet. I actually agree with most of the numbers nerfs, as they make sense. When I have to play my character differently today than I did yesterday to be effective, thats where I and many others will draw the line. TWF does not have to play their toons one iota differently. THF does, or they are less effective. We either all have to start twitching, or we all have to start standing still. Merely chasing down mobs in combat loses ~30% dps. In a large group that #% becomes alot higher. Where are these mobs that stand still in combat again?

Numbers nerfs are fine. Playstyle nerfs are not. Box me in on my playstyle, and the new Star Wars game might start looking better and better.

[Chai]

17 dex for TWF. Also, THF isn't spending strength on those feats, every DPS based build has much higher than 15 strength, unless it's some kind of joke build.

Crowing about having to toss a few points into dex is getting old like George Burns. You need to spend the points to get to 15 dex, because +2 tomes now grow on trees. you can still have max str with having to make that allocation to dex, so in the min maxer world, you lose nothing.

[justagame]

A lot of the discussion has focused on THF barbs, and other builds for whom glancing blows are a small % of ovarall damage. I have a THF kotc paladin, however, who is getting the kotc/capstone damage destroyed, because it procs on glancing blows. This feature helped make the build very effective dps-wise, much more so than many would think (I realize conventional wisdom is to make every single kotc paladin a twf).

When fighting non-bosses, THF's are moving all the time. So that toon just lost 40% of it's KOTC and capstone damage, in addition to the nerf that all THF builds were getting.

And why, why does this nerf need to happen? Where is lag the most frequent? Shroud parts 4 and 5. Stationary, non-moving targets, where twitching is next to impossible, and as a result, there are practically no moving glancing blows. So it can't possibly be the case that moving glancing blows are creating shroud lag. Correspondingly, I can't see how this nerf helps shroud lag at all. What it DOES do, however, is make me want to retire this character.

With zeal and GTHF rendered irrelevant, and attack speed slowed down, I just don't see how this character will continue to be enjoyable to play.

[R0cksteady]

A lot of the discussion has focused on THF barbs, and other builds for whom glancing blows are a small % of ovarall damage. I have a THF kotc paladin, however, who is getting the kotc/capstone damage destroyed, because it procs on glancing blows. This feature helped make the build very effective dps-wise, much more so than many would think (I realize conventional wisdom is to make every single kotc paladin a twf).

When fighting non-bosses, THF's are moving all the time. So that toon just lost 40% of it's KOTC and capstone damage, in addition to the nerf that all THF builds were getting.

And why, why does this nerf need to happen? Where is lag the most frequent? Shroud parts 4 and 5. Stationary, non-moving targets, where twitching is next to impossible, and as a result, there are practically no moving glancing blows. So it can't possibly be the case that moving glancing blows are creating shroud lag. Correspondingly, I can't see how this nerf helps shroud lag at all. What it DOES do, however, is make me want to retire this character.

With zeal and GTHF rendered irrelevant, and attack speed slowed down, I just don't see how this character will continue to be enjoyable to play.

Zeal still procs double strikes for THF.

And the nerf was never about lag. It was about a nerf. Otherwise they could have balanced the numbers to keep DPS the same while still changing the system to prevent lag.