DEVS: Proposed Shintao PrE Overhaul

[mboger]

First, I want to congratulate you on Ninja Spy. You nailed that PrE and I think a lot of dark monks are going to be happy with it.

With that said, though, the Shintao PrE needs major work. As it stands now, it's the only PrE that makes your character worse if you take it and definitely does not compare to Ninja Spy. My proposal is to make Shintao less of a "Pally Splash" and more of an Evil Outsider warrior.

Shintao I: Strikes count as Silver for DR purposes. Strikes have "Pure Good" effect on them.
Shintao II: Strikes count as Cold Iron for DR purposes. Strikes have "Evil Outsider Bane" (Or LEOB, if you feel EOB is overpowered) on them.
Shintao III: Strikes count as Metalline for DR purposes. Strikes have "Greater Evil Outsider Bane" (Or EOB, if you feel GEOB is overpowered) on them.

This is pretty basic, but it would go along way into making Shintao a viable PrE. This will also help light monks get invited into Raids and cut down on the "Sorry, we've already got a monk" replies.

[Drakos]

First, I want to congratulate you on Ninja Spy. You nailed that PrE and I think a lot of dark monks are going to be happy with it.

With that said, though, the Shintao PrE needs major work. As it stands now, it's the only PrE that makes your character worse if you take it and definitely does not compare to Ninja Spy. My proposal is to make Shintao less of a "Pally Splash" and more of an Evil Outsider warrior.

Shintao I: Strikes count as Silver for DR purposes. Strikes have "Pure Good" effect on them.
Shintao II: Strikes count as Cold Iron for DR purposes. Strikes have "Evil Outsider Bane" (Or LEOB, if you feel EOB is overpowered) on them.
Shintao III: Strikes count as Metalline for DR purposes. Strikes have "Greater Evil Outsider Bane" (Or EOB, if you feel GEOB is overpowered) on them.

This is pretty basic, but it would go along way into making Shintao a viable PrE. This will also help light monks get invited into Raids and cut down on the "Sorry, we've already got a monk" replies.

I agree that the Shintao Monk is not a good choice as is, but your version is way overpowered.

[Borror0]

My proposal is to make Shintao less of a "Pally Splash" and more of an Evil Outsider warrior.

That would be both against the design of the PrC in PnP and poor design. Builds that do really good damage against only a small number of monsters are not that fun to play. To make them attractive, either the bonus is overpowered versus those creatures or they suffer painfully when not against their favored enemy.

[dogpig00]

would also suggest add the following feats to list of "any one of" feat requirement:

Lightning reflexes
Iron Will
Great Fortitude
Bullheaded
Lessor (or least) dragonmark of any kind

[Anthios888]

I'd like to see Shintao monk do something cool, but this version just sounds like another knight of the chalice mimic. We already have metalline handwraps... I'd rather have something that effects more types of monsters than the ones we were fighting 3 mods ago. Adding a bit of good damage, immunities, aoe healing, or unique effects (think of walking on water or acrobat immunity to knockdowns) would be a lot more interesting than an expensive smite you can't use very often.

[Borror0]

My proposal is to make Shintao less of a "Pally Splash

this version just sounds like another knight of the chalice mimic.

Oh the irony!

[Aerendil]

I agree that the Shintao Monk is not a good choice as is, but your version is way overpowered.

Agreed on both. The idea is overpowered, but the concept of an "outsider hunter" isn't out of the realm of Monk PrCs either.
Eberron-flavoured "Atavist" for example, hunts quori and possessed people (and coincidentally also grants the ability to do Dismissal attacks.... ).

As Quori only exist in a few upper level quests, making it "extraplanar" or "outsider"-based might be more accurate. or the more generalized "evil" as an enemy could also work (and probably work better).

Also note that the Atavist PrC does have an ability called "Quori Hunter", which allows the Monk to use his/her unarmed strikes (in DDO terms I would change this to "centered weapon") to be treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This could be a perfect tier II ability instead of cold-iron.

I would also love to see tier I's abilities altered. Either lower the cool-down on the smite ability, increase it's damage (or both preferably). Perhaps even make it extraplanar/outsiders only to tie in with the tier II dismissal strike.
Would also love to see Protection from Evil have a purpose!! In PNP one of it's main purposes was to protect from charm/suggestion. Except in DDO the enemies never try to charm you (and why not?). Also consider changing it to a permanent "aura".

Maybe also allow the "vorpal" attack on Curse of Healing to hit outsiders/extraplanar enemies as well.

And as Shintao is a light-based PrE, and we're on the top of light side stuff, please review the buff timers for the light-side buffs.
As has been argued countless times, a level-affected timer would be so much better. Having a level 3 Monk be able to buff with the same duration and effectiveness of a level 20 Monk is pure silliness.

[Dylos_Moon]

That would be both against the design of the PrC in PnP and poor design. Builds that do really good damage against only a small number of monsters are not that fun to play. To make them attractive, either the bonus is overpowered versus those creatures or they suffer painfully when not against their favored enemy.

Agreed, Shintao monk does not excel against only evil outsiders, it is meant to excel against any creature with a taint score. This leads me to believe that in the Eberron setting, Shintao Monks would be closely related to the Gatekeepers, much like the Argent Fist is closely related to the Silver Flame.

Shintao Monks would excel at facing the Gatekeepers' enemies, which are: Any Outsiders, Any Aberrations, The Inspired, and most of all the Daelkyr.

Shintao get a smite ability, and turbine gave them the smite ability. Note that Daelkyr are evil outsiders, yes, however their damage reduction is negated by Byeshk, the first damage reduction that Shintao Monks can bypass. The second damage reduction that Shintao Monks can bypass is cold iron, and guess what, the Gatekeepers' have more encounters with Demons then Devils, and the end game experience will not always remain dominated by Devils. We are in Shavarath now, there are Demons in Shavarath too, with any luck we could see the Demon area of Shavarath soon.

I'm not too excited about the banish attack myself, I feel that something more along the lines of the Silver Flame Exorcism would prove more useful.

[Vhlad]

That would be both against the design of the PrC in PnP and poor design. Builds that do really good damage against only a small number of monsters are not that fun to play. To make them attractive, either the bonus is overpowered versus those creatures or they suffer painfully when not against their favored enemy.

Do you think the current incarnation of the shintao PrE is good design?

[mboger]

I agree that the Shintao Monk is not a good choice as is, but your version is way overpowered.

When you consider a GS wielding character can have Holy, Shocking Blast, Shocking Burst, and Lightning Strike on one weapon that affects every mob he hits, I don't think PG and EOB (plus whatever is on the wraps... Holy and Bleed for this example) is over powered at all, especially since EOB will only work on EOs.

But for arguments sake, let's say it is overpowered. What about a middle ground? Maybe instead of PG, it's a straight up +2 good damage and go with LEOB and EOB for Tier II and III.

And as for Borr0 mentioning that they suffer painfully when not against their "favored enemy," this PrE would still give monks DR bypassing on just about everything but Anarchic and Pierce, along with +2 good damage. That, in turn, allows for a wider range of wrap use, since right now 90% of the time most monks are swinging Devouts at end game.

I guess it's up to what's more important... Do you want a broken PrE because it fits in with PnP (as if DDO has never deviated in the past) or do you want a PrE that's actually useful?

[SquelchHU]

Also note that the Atavist PrC does have an ability called "Quori Hunter", which allows the Monk to use his/her unarmed strikes (in DDO terms I would change this to "centered weapon") to be treated as good-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This could be a perfect tier II ability instead of cold-iron.

This would reduce the ability from very marginally useful to completely useless.

[Brother_Solar]

A lot of the Shintao releated abilities I would suggest have already been partially implimented through finishing moves and other abilities or they just don't apply to DDO.

For reference: http://www.realms.co.il/BlogThread.asp?ID=881

We can't do "Grasp of the Earth Dragon" because it has already been made a finishing move.

We can't do "Steal the Air Dragon" because the Ninja Spy got invisibility, and repetition wouldn't be good.

We can't do "Speak to the Soul" because we don't have a Detect Magic spell in DDO.

We can't do "Purity of the Shinsei" because we don't have a Light spell in DDO.

We could do "Channel the Fire Dragon", but Protection from Fire and Cold wouldn't be that much fun.

The gaze attacks could be implimented in some way, but that would probably require additional graphics changes, which I doubt is feasible before the stated Update 5 release date.

/shrug
It's really a lot better in PnP... Shintao isn't giving DDO much to work with.

[MrCow]

The gaze attacks could be implimented in some way, but that would probably require additional graphics changes, which I doubt is feasible before the stated Update 5 release date.

Much like the Assassin Poison graphic they could take the cheap way out; reuse the See Invisibility graphic.

[mboger]

Maybe also allow the "vorpal" attack on Curse of Healing to hit outsiders/extraplanar enemies as well.

Even something like this would be a welcomed change. Making the light strike vorpal against outsiders or even just doing a decent Xd6 damage against outsiders similar to how it affects undead.

How about something like this:

Shintao I: Silver DR bypass. Light attack does 3d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20 roll, does 5d10.
Shintao II: Cold Iron bypass. Light attack does 5d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20, does 10d10.
Shintao III: Metalline bypass. Light attack does 7d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20, vorpal.

[Dylos_Moon]

Even something like this would be a welcomed change. Making the light strike vorpal against outsiders or even just doing a decent Xd6 damage against outsiders similar to how it affects undead.

How about something like this:

Shintao I: Silver DR bypass. Light attack does 3d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20 roll, does 5d10.
Shintao II: Cold Iron bypass. Light attack does 5d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20, does 10d10.
Shintao III: Metalline bypass. Light attack does 7d6 against outsiders. On a natural 20, vorpal.

Shintao should not and will not get silver until tier 3, get over it.

[Drakos]

When you consider a GS wielding character can have Holy, Shocking Blast, Shocking Burst, and Lightning Strike on one weapon that affects every mob he hits, I don't think PG and EOB (plus whatever is on the wraps... Holy and Bleed for this example) is over powered at all, especially since EOB will only work on EOs.

The issue is apples and oranges. One is a PrE for a couple of Action Points the other is alot of gringing in a high level raid to get the proper components. Two totally different concepts. Secondly, Monks can now have access to more centered weapons to gain the GS abilities that you refer to if they want. Giving Silver and PG to a teir I PrE is way overboard.

But for arguments sake, let's say it is overpowered. What about a middle ground? Maybe instead of PG, it's a straight up +2 good damage and go with LEOB and EOB for Tier II and III.

In my opinion with these changes they are still over powered.

I guess it's up to what's more important... Do you want a broken PrE because it fits in with PnP (as if DDO has never deviated in the past) or do you want a PrE that's actually useful?

Since you asked, I'd rather both a PrC that works as in PnP and is useful. But what I'd like more is one the is balanced correctly vs. orthe PrC's in the game.

[Borror0]

Do you think the current incarnation of the shintao PrE is good design?

I would say good but it's not bad design in the same way or the same extent that mboger's suggestion would be.

Shintao Monk is mostly lacking in power level and impressiveness, and the prerequisites are questionable, but it's not beyond repair.

[mboger]

Shintao should not and will not get silver until tier 3, get over it.

I would, if I could reasonably expect Shintao III to come out in my lifetime.

[Elaril]

This pre should just increase the healing output of curse of healing and fists of light, and provide an increase to the monk's healing amplification.

[dkyle]

As it stands now, it's the only PrE that makes your character worse if you take it

I'm curious about this. Is it just that the feat and enhancement prereqs aren't worth the benifits? Or is there some side effect I'm missing that makes monks worse in some way if they take it?

If it's the former, I'd say Deepwood Sniper is in the same boat. Virtuoso's kind of a waste too.