DEVS: Proposed Shintao PrE Overhaul

[mboger]

This pre should just increase the healing output of curse of healing and fists of light, and provide an increase to the monk's healing amplification.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Henshin Mystic will be all about increasing power/duration of strikes and buffs.

[Drakos]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Henshin Mystic will be all about increasing power/duration of strikes and buffs.

I don't know, I kind of think it is going to be about enhancing our elemental effects in some way.

[mboger]

I'm curious about this. Is it just that the feat and enhancement prereqs aren't worth the benifits? Or is there some side effect I'm missing that makes monks worse in some way if they take it?

If it's the former, I'd say Deepwood Sniper is in the same boat. Virtuoso's kind of a waste too.

It's both. You give up a lot in feats and AP, but also the current implementation of Smite doesn't give you an offhand attack, effectively making it worse than just swinging normally.

[mboger]

I don't know, I kind of think it is going to be about enhancing our elemental effects in some way.

Yeah and I think that will manifest itself in the form of strikes. I don't know... Less Ki per strike, higher dice counts for damage rolls, maybe a chance for effects like setting the mob on fire when you do a fire strike or freezing it when you do a water strike. That and increased buff durations are my guess for Henshin (and if so, it will be a million times more worthwhile than Shintao).

[Vhlad]

I would say good but it's not bad design in the same way or the same extent that mboger's suggestion would be.

Shintao Monk is mostly lacking in power level and impressiveness, and the prerequisites are questionable, but it's not beyond repair.

I think the entire premise of creating a PrE to supplement inferior itemization (no greensteel wraps, no epic wraps, no raid wraps) and unfairly and unjustifiably inflated itemization requirements is bad design.

If they don't fix the itemization, it's not exactly fair to a ninja spy or henshin or no-pre monk.
If they do fix the itemization, i.e. release epic wraps that we can augment with a metal type, or raid loot wraps with metalline, what end-game appeal is there left to the shintao pre? Does this create disincentive to improve monk handwrap itemization?

I would prefer if the design of shintao focused in a different direction. As is, it lacks power, utility, has high pre-reqs, and is basically just supplementing poor itemization.

[Brother_Solar]

I don't like the idea of making the Shintao more effective against evil outsiders than they are against other evil creatures.

What about...

Shintao I

• 10% increase to the effectiveness of your Healing abilities (like the Cleric Life Magic enhancement)
• Shintao Monk Smite (but fix the offhand proc chance and reduce the timer to 15 seconds at most)
• Shintao Monk Protection from Evil
• Byshek Fists

Shintao II

• 10% increase to the effectiveness of your Healing abilities (stacking for a total of 20%, tier III would increase it to 30%)
• Shintao Monk Purity - 1d6 Good damage vs. Evil while unarmed (won't affect Neutral aligned creatures the way Pure Good does)
• Cold Iron Fists

I think the "Byshek" and "Cold Iron" stuff is hokey, but I don't have a good suggestion for what to change them out for yet.

[mboger]

I would say good but it's not bad design in the same way or the same extent that mboger's suggestion would be.

Shintao Monk is mostly lacking in power level and impressiveness, and the prerequisites are questionable, but it's not beyond repair.

You edited this post... It originally said something along the lines of "Yes, it is good design, but could use a power adjustment."

First off, I'll admit that I'm out of touch with PnP, especially anything to do with Eberron (I stopped playing at AD&D 2.0), so I can't argue what a Shintao *should* be. My question for you is this: Since you believe this is a well designed PrE that just needs some adjustments, do you have a light monk and are you planning on respec'ing into Shintao if this goes live as is? I do have a light monk and I won't be taking Shintao as it now stands. To me, if you have the choice of taking one PrE (Henshin doesn't exist yet and Ninja Spy is for dark only) or going without and it's a no-brainer to pick "go without," then that PrE is poorly designed.

Instead of you just saying my ideas are overpowered and poorly designed (and they very well could be... I'm not saying my ideas are perfect, I'm just trying to stir up some debate so we can get a worthwhile light PrE), I'd like to hear what adjustments you'd make that would make you respec your light monk to this PrE.

[chubbs99]

having basically volunteered my monk to my guild as a light based monk for ToD runs, I'll take this PrE over a kick in the lower regions.

As it is now, healing shield is useless against bosses, so you waist an attack where you could be doing extra damage. Having a smite ability that does damage is a bonus. Having it have a recharge of 30 seconds MUST be a typo (pesky extra 0), but if its WAI buffs last long enough that at least on the attack cycle your throwing out a buff you arn't loosing as much damage. Earth attacks the rest of the time and your still getting a gain.

I don't think having innate DR on fists is a big whoop... I'm still only going to end up using 2-3 handwraps. If/when Tier III comes out, and we either get Metaline or Silver... Well then I'll be able to put the Devout wraps in storage.

All in all, I'm not impressed with the entire light path of monk at all, but the fact that the anti stun is so useful for ToD keeps me from respecting back into dark for now.

[terrenceknight1]

I Know the Smite from Shintao I has been mentioned multiple times on the forums so I'll just go on to agree its timer should be reduced and should give a chance for offhand proc.

Shintao II. I like the Banishing idea, but I would also really like to see it have some large damage output instead when you fight outsiders that are Immune to being banished be it due to buff from the quest your in saying they are 'anchored' to this plane.

Or Naturaly Immune like Rakshasa (I'm sorry if I spelld the Outsider Humanoid Tiger men's name wrong, but I'm sure you all know what I mean)

Also especially for us folks who like playing out in Shavarath. Can't Banish stuff out there so Shintao II Dismissal is worthless out in Shavarath. So on mobs like thoes.. can't we instead get a big ole chunk of damage instead?

[Borror0]

It originally said something along the lines of "Yes, it is good design, but could use a power adjustment."

It was more around the lines of "It's not good design but it's not bad design."

To me, if you have the choice of taking one PrE (Henshin doesn't exist yet and Ninja Spy is for dark only) or going without and it's a no-brainer to pick "go without," then that PrE is poorly designed.

I wouldn't disagree but I was not using "bad design" in that sense.

Remember the clause about needing power adjustment? It was there for a reason.

I'd like to hear what adjustments you'd make that would make you respec your light monk to this PrE.

• Shintao Monk I
  
  • Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance, Monk Concentration II, Monk Improved Recovery I, and any one of Divine Health, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Precision, Resilience, Self Sufficient, or Stunning Fist.
  • Cost: 4 AP
  • Benefit: You gain the ability to expend ki to smite evil creatures, and can create a Protection from Evil effect, warding allies from domination and improving defenses against evil opponents. Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byeshk damage reduction. You gain a +1 AC aura (does not stack with Aura of Good) and your Walk of the Sun finisher now grants a +2 morale bonus to damage.
  • Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil
    
    • Cost: 5 Ki
    • Benefit: At your touch, a magical barrier is created that wards a target from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The target is also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  • Shintao Monk: Smite Evil
    
    • Cost: 15 Ki
    • Benefit: You have the ability to expend ki to deal devastating blows in melee against evil creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  
• Shintao Monk II
  
  • Prereqs: Level 12 Monk, Shintao Monk I, and any of Rise of the Phoenix or Monk Improved Recovery III.
  • Cost: 2 AP
  • Benefit: Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction. The critical multiplier and threat range of your monk Smite Evil are both increased by one. The bonus granted by your aura to AC and the morale bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills granted by your Walk of the Sun finisher are both improved by 1.
  • Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike
    
    • Cost: 25 Ki
    • Benefit: You perform a melee attack that attempts to force an extra planar enemy back to its proper plane. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  

That's a rough and non-balanced version, but that's around the lines of what I'd do.

[Vhlad]

That is better.

You've improved the feat requirements, added utility via AC aura & sun finisher party buff, and increased power mainly via adding damage buff to sun finisher, but also by slightly improving shintao smite.

With those changes it makes it seem less like we're investing in the PrE to supplement poor itemization, and more like we're investing in the PrE for AC/skills/saves/damage/to-hit.

I'm not sure how feasible it is to change built-in finishers though. PrEs usually add new icons that we drag to our hotbar. The sun finisher pops up on an icon thats already on our hotbar and shared with other finishers. Nice idea though. A work-around could be to just tie it all into the AC aura, but that is slightly more powerful as you wouldn't have to re-cast it every minute. IMO based on the TOD henshin set being fire based, it's more likely we'd see anything involving fire attacks/finishers being used for the henshin pre. Although since henshin is supposed to be available to light and dark monks, the fire/light/fire finisher wouldnt be applicable, so yeah, it wouldn't conflict to use it for shintao.

[Aerendil]

It was more around the lines of "It's not good design but it's not bad design."

I wouldn't disagree but I was not using "bad design" in that sense.

Remember the clause about needing power adjustment? It was there for a reason.

• Shintao Monk I
  
  • Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance, Monk Concentration II, Monk Improved Recovery I, and any one of Divine Health, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Precision, Resilience, Self Sufficient, or Stunning Fist.
  • Cost: 4 AP
  • Benefit: You gain the ability to expend ki to smite evil creatures, and can create a Protection from Evil effect, warding allies from domination and improving defenses against evil opponents. Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byeshk damage reduction. You gain a +1 AC aura (does not stack with Aura of Good) and your Walk of the Sun finisher now grants a +2 morale bonus to damage.
  • Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil
    
    • Cost: 5 Ki
    • Benefit: At your touch, a magical barrier is created that wards a target from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The target is also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  • Shintao Monk: Smite Evil
    
    • Cost: 15 Ki
    • Benefit: You have the ability to expend ki to deal devastating blows in melee against evil creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  
• Shintao Monk II
  
  • Prereqs: Level 12 Monk, Shintao Monk I, and any of Rise of the Phoenix or Monk Improved Recovery III.
  • Cost: 2 AP
  • Benefit: Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction. The critical multiplier and threat range of your monk Smite Evil are both increased by one. The bonus granted by your aura to AC and the morale bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills granted by your Walk of the Sun finisher are both improved by 1.
  • Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike
    
    • Cost: 25 Ki
    • Benefit: You perform a melee attack that attempts to force an extra planar enemy back to its proper plane. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  

That's a rough and non-balanced version, but that's around the lines of what I'd do.

Take that, and:
- change light-side buff finishers to be something like 60 sec at level 3, but something like 10 minutes at level 20. Let us throw those buffs out, and then focus more on dealing damage with ki strikes than playing "keep the buffs up" juggle.
- allow the smite and dismissal to be used with weapons. Sure, most Monks go unarmed only, but right now this PrE *forces* you go to light, and then further *forces* you to go unarmed. What happened to options? :/
- lower smite cooldown

And even then, the ability to do multiple ToDs as a Dark monk with double-strike will probably win out :/

[Rhysem]

Here I was thinking, at least at level 13-ish how nice banishing wraps were to have on my monk... to be able to throw that at-will as a strike with no crit required with my regular dps wraps on, at a higher DC doesn't seem bad. I mean at end-game you're going to be throwing around DC 40 banish attacks. That doesn't seem like it'd suck too bad.

Maybe not as awesome as ninja spy, but for sure better than where I stand today with no PrEs.

[Brother_Solar]

Here I was thinking, at least at level 13-ish how nice banishing wraps were to have on my monk... to be able to throw that at-will as a strike with no crit required with my regular dps wraps on, at a higher DC doesn't seem bad. I mean at end-game you're going to be throwing around DC 40 banish attacks. That doesn't seem like it'd suck too bad.

Maybe not as awesome as ninja spy, but for sure better than where I stand today with no PrEs.

I think the primary issue with it is that it is not useful at all in the Shavarath zone and quests or in Epic quests. For levels 12-18, it'll be awesome. After level 18 it has no value in most quests we will be running other than as an expensive way to build up Light finishers.

[mboger]

It was more around the lines of "It's not good design but it's not bad design."

I wouldn't disagree but I was not using "bad design" in that sense.

Remember the clause about needing power adjustment? It was there for a reason.

• Shintao Monk I
  
  • Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance, Monk Concentration II, Monk Improved Recovery I, and any one of Divine Health, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Precision, Resilience, Self Sufficient, or Stunning Fist.
  • Cost: 4 AP
  • Benefit: You gain the ability to expend ki to smite evil creatures, and can create a Protection from Evil effect, warding allies from domination and improving defenses against evil opponents. Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byeshk damage reduction. You gain a +1 AC aura (does not stack with Aura of Good) and your Walk of the Sun finisher now grants a +2 morale bonus to damage.
  • Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil
    
    • Cost: 5 Ki
    • Benefit: At your touch, a magical barrier is created that wards a target from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The target is also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  • Shintao Monk: Smite Evil
    
    • Cost: 15 Ki
    • Benefit: You have the ability to expend ki to deal devastating blows in melee against evil creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  
• Shintao Monk II
  
  • Prereqs: Level 12 Monk, Shintao Monk I, and any of Rise of the Phoenix or Monk Improved Recovery III.
  • Cost: 2 AP
  • Benefit: Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction. The critical multiplier and threat range of your monk Smite Evil are both increased by one. The bonus granted by your aura to AC and the morale bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills granted by your Walk of the Sun finisher are both improved by 1.
  • Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike
    
    • Cost: 25 Ki
    • Benefit: You perform a melee attack that attempts to force an extra planar enemy back to its proper plane. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  

That's a rough and non-balanced version, but that's around the lines of what I'd do.

That's definitely progress from the current implementation. I could live with that if the Smite timer is at least halved and if there was a substantial damage dealing ability on the Tier II Banishing Strike to make it worthwhile in Shavarath and against EO Raid Bosses. Something along the lines of doing 200 damage if the banish is unsuccessful or if attempting to do it on their home plane.

[Borror0]

more like we're investing in the PrE for AC/skills/saves/damage/to-hit.

Ya, that was the goal. It makes of the shintao monk more support-oriented, but I don't think that is bad.

By the way, it's pointing out the obvious but Shintao would be:

• +1 to Walk the Sun (for a total of +4) and Aura (for a total of +3)
• Silver to unarmed
• +1 critical threat and multiplier to Monk Smite Evil
• new active ability inspired by the theme (I would suggest a buff)

[Jahmin]

That would be both against the design of the PrC in PnP and poor design. Builds that do really good damage against only a small number of monsters are not that fun to play. To make them attractive, either the bonus is overpowered versus those creatures or they suffer painfully when not against their favored enemy.

utterly false - try not to borro this PrE fix as well

[Rhysem]

If it is to focus on the buff, then buffs for monks really really need to last a lot longer. At least a few minutes. (few being >=3)

[Borror0]

utterly false - try not to borro this PrE fix as well

You should try to make an argument, not just contradict me. It would be more effective.

[Jahmin]

You should try to make an argument, not just contradict me. It would be more effective.

If you wish to make this petty and get smacked around again, we can go here - in the mean time, how about stop spewing falsehoods?

You made an incorrect statement and I pointed out it was wrong. Funny how you like to do that