New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Sylvurdragon]

I fear that the unfortunate truth of the matter is, we're going to be stuck with this sucky dice notation. Turbine has always made changes like this, the community gets ****ed off, the devs and moderators go silent, and we get stuck with ****. Turbine should know that the reason DDO was failing miserably before was NOT because it had a monthly subscription. It was because they would make idiotic changes like this and cram them down our throats to the point where people finally just threw up their hands and quit the game. DDO has more players and is considered successful now because it is free, no other reason. People flock to things that are free. It is not considered successful because of the shovelfulls of garbage, like this, that you force down the playerbase's collective throat.

So, we can complain all we want, but Turbine really doesn't care and has no intention of ever putting the dice notation back the way it was. What is on Lamannia is going to go to live and we will either have to live with it or move on to another game.

This is sad, but I'm starting to believe you It has been over a week since we received any sort of notification from Tolero or anyone...this is a bigger deal than they realize. It'll make me sad if this goes live...no not sad, upset and angry. I'm sure i'm not the only one, either...

[Magusrex777]

I do not understand any of you who are upset by this change. It is crazy. I loved D&D, playing it shaped who my early friends were and who I am today. I majored in Electrical Engineering but opened a comic book and card store that sold D&D products right after college. I ran D&D games everyday for my customers for years. I love DDO because the traps, classes, monsters and feel get me closest to that feeling I had in my youth. The first time I enter a dungeon I have never been and I hear the DM narration….MAGIC. I touch the very soul of my youth and thank Turbine from the deep within my heart. Whether the description says 2-12 or 2d6 or both is so meaningless to me I am shocked and stunned people are so upset.

This game is what I choose to make of it, I love it so much I cannot fathom a reason I would let the wording on a tooltip have any affect on something I cherish. Having fun with your friends exploring the fantastic unknown only limited by your imagination is what D&D is about, not the terminology. We have so much in common but in this case I feel like so many of you have lost touch with what D&D is. Maybe we played a different game, D&D was about the people and the journey for me, not the dice. I did have a favorite set I kept in goofy a little bag. They still let us see the dice rolling, ignore the descriptions, don’t get mired in the details, play the game, have fun. That is what is important about D&D, at least to me.

[Tilliak]

I do not understand any of you who are upset by this change. It is crazy. I loved D&D, playing it shaped who my early friends were and who I am today. I majored in Electrical Engineering but opened a comic book and card store that sold D&D products right after college. I ran D&D games everyday for my customers for years. I love DDO because the traps, classes, monsters and feel get me closest to that feeling I had in my youth. The first time I enter a dungeon I have never been and I hear the DM narration….MAGIC. I touch the very soul of my youth and thank Turbine from the deep within my heart. Whether the description says 2-12 or 2d6 or both is so meaningless to me I am shocked and stunned people are so upset.

This game is what I choose to make of it, I love it so much I cannot fathom a reason I would let the wording on a tooltip have any affect on something I cherish. Having fun with your friends exploring the fantastic unknown only limited by your imagination is what D&D is about, not the terminology. We have so much in common but in this case I feel like so many of you have lost touch with what D&D is. Maybe we played a different game, D&D was about the people and the journey for me, not the dice. I did have a favorite set I kept in goofy a little bag. They still let us see the dice rolling, ignore the descriptions, don’t get mired in the details, play the game, have fun. That is what is important about D&D, at least to me.

Part of what D&D is is the details. If you don't have the details, you can't have a game of any kind. If they're going screw with the details, what's next? "Oh, we decided that DM narration at the beginning of the adventure was annoying some players, so we've decided to remove it." Or, "We got a complaint from an overly religious parent about there being too many demons in the game. As a result we've decided to change Shav to a playground for Fey." Allowing this kind of change opens up the doors for too many others.

[Eelpout]

While this issue does not make me mad, it does make me sad.

Please, use dice. This is DnD. Add a secondary description with the actual range if you must, but please leave us our dice.

I think I speak for more than a few old-time DnDers when I say seeing "5d6" makes me feel like I'm playing DnD, and seeing "5-30" makes me stop and figure out how that's being rolled.

I'm not mad.

I'm definitely sad.

Well written.

I agree

/sign

[DME543]

Well written.

I agree

/sign

Although it does make me mad as well as sad...
/Signed

[Magusrex777]

Part of what D&D is is the details. If you don't have the details, you can't have a game of any kind. If they're going screw with the details, what's next? "Oh, we decided that DM narration at the beginning of the adventure was annoying some players, so we've decided to remove it." Or, "We got a complaint from an overly religious parent about there being too many demons in the game. As a result we've decided to change Shav to a playground for Fey." Allowing this kind of change opens up the doors for too many others.

I disagree, I will always know what the description means. No one can ever take that away from me. I never played with anyone that didn't have some sort of house rules. The instructions even recommended it. The monster manual was rewritten for 2nd edition due to religious pressure or didn't you know? It is just a tooltip the only person who is making the game any less D&D because of the description is yourself. I actually take it all back I am not surprised at all. 1st edition - 2nd edition- 3rd - 3.5 - 4th, everyone freaked out(they still are). Its not D&D anymore OMG, /sky falls. I forgot I just ignored those people and kept having fun anyway.

[MadFloyd]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

[Borror0]

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!"

You might be interested in this suggestion, then, if you've missed it: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...73#post3016073

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

This thread will soon be flooded by even madder posters insulted by the fact that you "won't listen to our feedback." While that is clearly an overstatement, are there reasons the current approach was and is still favored over the many other alternatives proposed in this thread in spite of its flaws?

[OldAquarian]

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

I have already posted that showing an Average would be more intuitive than a range. If I care enough that the range would make a difference, then the distribution would also matter.

But, if you are looking to make the game more accessable then making the whole stacking process easier would be my first choice.

If I have a Belt with +2 STR and am looking at Gloves with +2 STR, The +2 should be RED and I should be able to easily find what item (the Belt) is making the +2 RED.

Same idea for A +2 Arrow when I have a +3 Bow. And as far as something like DR, if I have 5/Adam and I'm looking at something with 4/- or then make it Yellow. Same for competence, insight, etc.

The same idea for anything else where bonuses don't stack.

Anyway, thank you for replying, even though it's not what a lot of people wanted to hear, it's still shows that you are at least listening (reading) and are being upfront with us.

[Eelpout]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

He also said the above. That tells me they are trying to make it optional so we can keep our dice descriptors and ignore the others

[DANTEIL]

This thread will soon be flooded by even madder posters insulted by the fact that you "won't listen to our feedback." While that is clearly an overstatement, are there reasons the current approach was and is still favored over the many of the other alternatives proposed in this thread in spite of its flaws?

I don't see that's the case, at least not how I read it:

We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

It sounds to me like the non-dice info was supposed to be considered a toggle option, and that they are considering reverting this back to an option in a future update.

If they are getting lots of player feedback that finds "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" intimidating, then it makes sense to provide the option to simplify the presentation of the information if a player desires (as long as the info is still accurate).

[Coldin]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

It's great to make things more accessible and easy to understand.

I just would rather see the DnD dice first, and the damage range after. Or at least right nearby. Having it so far down at the bottom and in it's own little entry just makes it hard to see, and takes up precious screen real estate.

I appreciate the intention, but I definitely do not like the implementation.

[Borror0]

I don't see that's the case, at least not how I read it:

I don't see why you label that as "listening to player feedback" since:
1. He admitted that it was making it optional before they received any feedback from us.
2. Making it optional was not what was the playerbase clamored for.
3. Making it optional does not actually solve the issues many had with it.
4. There have been many suggestions accomplishing the desired goal while also addressing the issues brought up in this thread.

If they are getting lots of player feedback that finds "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" intimidating, then it makes sense to provide the option to simplify the presentation of the information if a player desires (as long as the info is still accurate).

But a range is not accurate. 2d6+1 is 3-13, as a range, but has an average of 8. However, most people would interpret 3-13 as being 1d11+2 which has an average of 7. The dice display is more accurate than a mere range, which is part of what people have been saying all along.

[Arkat]

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

It seems, to many of us at least, you're changing the game from D&D to some other game.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I don't see why you label that as "listening to player feedback" since:
1. He admitted that it was making it optional before they received any feedback from us.
2. Making it optional was not what was the playerbase clamored for.
3. Making it optional does not actually solve the issues many had with it.
4. There have been many suggestions accomplishing the desired goal while also addressing the issues brought up in this thread.

But a range is not accurate. 2d6+1 is 3-13, as a range, but has an average of 8 but most people would interpret 3-13 as being 1d11+2 which has an average of 7. The dice display is more accurate than a mere range, which is part of what people have been saying all along.

Exactly. Which makes me think they they really don't understand it. And makes me really worry that if MF doesn't get your comment about range above that maybe the devs don't understand and are really just rolling the range, not the individual die. Just a little D&D dressing on top to fool us. Could explain why I got no response in the thread I asked the question.

[Mockduck]

I can't say anything more about this change that I haven't already said, it just smacks me as being a slap in the face to the D&D license. I can live with a toggle-able change, though.

When I start to play a new game, I try to figure out how the game works. I'm not concerned with the game trying to explain to me how it works in relation to the last game I played. But that's just me.

I think this is a horrible change that dilutes the feel of D&D from DDO and is insulting to new players and veterans alike. Obviously, I'm not a marketing consultant, which I have a feeling this change originated from. It just makes me really sad. I just hope this isn't an indication of future changes away from the D&D feel of the game to further dumb-down the rule set to make it easier for other MMO players to acclimate to. The D&D-ness of DDO is a large part of what makes this game special. I hope that everyone involved in marketing, developing and overseeing the game understands this and keeps it high on their list when considering changes to the game. I used to think this was the case, but my faith has been shaken a bit.

[Sirea]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

I never played a minute of PnP in my life before starting DDO.

Did the dice confuse me at first? A little. But guess what? Eventually, I learned. Granted my husband played PnP and was able to explain things to me, but I'm the type of person who would have sought out the information and taught myself regardless. You don't exactly have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Is it seriously that hard to look up something that you don't understand?

It seriously feels like obtaining information and actually learning and having pride in figuring something out is lost in our world these days. People are all about instant gratification, and it's not their fault if something's too hard, everyone and everything else should have to change for THEM, instead of THEM learning and adapting.

Of course you disagree with us, if you make the game easier and easier, then more people will come play and pump money into the DDO Store. Will this make the game better? Maybe for the WoW-tards, but not for the people who were attracted to this game because it was based on PnP.

I absolutely hate the pandering to the lowest common denominator. Keep the carebearing out of the game, please. People have been learning this game for 4 years, yet you are listening to a bunch of whiners who don't WANT to learn, and just want YOU to make everything simpler for them.

Turbine should seriously grow some balls and stick to their guns concerning something as iconic and deeply rooted in D&D as the d20 system. How does WotC feel about this change?

I sometimes wish the game would have died rather than take the path it's taken in the last several months...

[Alabore]

While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I would like to firmly yet politely object to that.
As other posters already mentioned before, this is not about keeping DDO niche so we can feel part of the secret DnD geek society.

Actually, most of the suggestions users provided went in a different direction.
Colour coding descriptions. Colour coding gear so it's more readily apparent if a said item is more or less beneficial to a given character.
Adding more tutorials and popups, so the whole DnD experience feels LESS intimidating.

Turning from 2d6 to 2-12 is not such a big deal for some of us.
I don't really think Gary Gygax would turn in his grave, actual or Delera's.
He would be extremely fascinated you managed to turn a pencil and paper game, that worked with metal models, potato chips and a lot of imagination into sophisticated computer code that allows people from all over the world to experience the same adventure and be touched by the same magic.
Maybe he would wonder why we fight over details, and miss the whole picture.

The picture is making sure new players feel welcome, and they are properly taught - and led by hand if they wish to - so they can shape their character with a modicum of freedom, without making crippling mistakes that could cost them time, money and above all fun.
If anybody were to ask me, touching up descriptions would not be the first step I would take when making DDO more newbie friendly.

Dice notation is really a minor point, compared to thousands way you could cripple your character when levelling up, or gearing it up.
If you don't mind the comparison, it's a bit like giving manicure when the patient got a cut on his arm.

I know you have to start somewhere.
Maybe you could consider tweaking other aspects.

I realise it's extremely blunt of me stepping on my little soapbox here, and telling you gents how to do your job.
But, please, do not disregard player awe and fan factor.
For some of these users keeping dice notation is a matter of principle, the tip of the whole iceberg of staying true to DnD.

While I'd rather have d20 dice notation, I am aware it is not such a big deal.
I'll learn to live with new notation, and maybe if you add dynamic descriptions that adjust to feats, levels and so on, even better.
For some others d20 notation is part of the magic.
Some had to swallow the new tweaks to combat system.
This one particular tweak might seem a bit pointless to them, something forced down from above just because you could.

Respectfully yours.
A.

[Magusrex777]

Thanks for the feedback.

For what it's worth, it's not our intention to drain the D&D out of the game. We're proud that we're D&D, that our game is unique amongst the competition, etc.

We're really just trying to make the game more accessible. We had a bit of a snafu with the D&D dice thing in the sense that it was supposed to be an option. I don't believe in forcing anyone to play the way I might want to play, but rather provide a choice. We are not able to revert this change for Update 5.

Speaking of accessibility, this is vital for our business model. I appreciate that most of you don't understand why it's difficult to understand that d6 = 1-6 but we get plenty of feedback from those who don't - or are intimidated by the complexities of D&D. While you might think that they don't deserve to play the game, we respectfully disagree.

I myself look at a spell tooltip that says something to the effect of "2d6+1 per caster level (max n)" and think "This is a computer - why do I need to do the math in the middle of an action game? You know my caster level, just tell me the range. And if I'm running maximize, take that into account!" Sure, I want to have access to the formula too, but mostly I want to know the bottom line.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about this. Your opinions and reactions are yours; all I'm trying to say is that we aren't intentionally trying to remove D&D from the game - we're trying to remove any barriers that prevent non-D&D experienced folks from otherwise enjoying an awesome game.

Thank you for the response and I support what you are doing. I do not know if anything you say here will help. I consider myself a D&D expert, I have played since the game came out. I ran games at tournaments and at my store I ran some premium game sessions that I charged people to attend. Some of the best players I ever had the pleasure of running for did not know a thing about D&D when they started. They did not care what their stats were, they knew no rules. They were more concerned with their character's background than they were with how much damage they could do. They played their character's well, just tell them what dice to roll and when and they were as good as anyone at the table, often much better because they were not hindered by rules baggage. They just played, they wanted to fun, their actions were more important than their dice rolls. I am glad you are trying to make the game more accessible to wider audience, you are not "dumbing" things down. People do that to themselves.

[Schmoe]

DDO should be like a gateway drug for PnP. With this dice change, it's more like getting people to smoke skunkweed trying to get them into pot.