New Dice notation. Do not like.

[bradleyforrest]

OH OH OH!! Why not change Rogue to Thief while we're at it!! And Fighter to Warrior....and and and Wizard to Mage....and and and...

/sarcasm off

:-D

Prior to 3.0, Thief was the name of the class. Rogue referred to Thieves and Bards

[Alleyna]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
*Hint box at Shipwreck Shore when talking to Jeets the second time and he gives you your first weapon. Perfect opportunity for a pop-up that describes what a d6 (or d4, etc..) is. Hints can be disabled by experienced players. Revert item descriptions to previous form. Can be combined with adding to user's manual/in-game help.
*Put description of d6 in the user's manual/in-game help. There are a lot of non-intuitive controls/actions/terms already in game that you need to look up in these sources already. Revert item descriptions to previous form. Can be combined with additional beginner's hint box.
*Put expanded description on low-level/common items only, but this is not preferred as it clutters up the item description pop-up and makes it harder to comprehend.

Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
I like that you are trying to help the newer base understand what this principle D&D mechanic is, but I think it is not implemented in an ideal manner.

Aspects of the current changes that you like the least
It severely lessens (and sometimes removes) the D&D feel from the Dungeons and Dragons Online. It clutters the item description pop-up. As was brought up, it does not convey the statistical probability that saying "1d6" (et al) implies by saying "1 to 6 damage," which (unintentionally) means the updated descriptions are giving misinformation. The concept can easily be learned by new players who have never used dice before without adding unnecessary (and misleading) information. Having the dice description gives this game the unique feel that this is Dungeons and Dragons!

Another thing that was mentioned before was that it would be a very hard adjustment for existing players. I've only been playing since DDO went F2P, and it would be a very hard adjustment for me. Imagine how hard it would be to all those who have been playing since the beginning!

I would also like to add, that this game not only brings in players (like myself) from the PnP D&D game, but has led DDO gamers to try out the PnP D&D experience. Please do not remove this feel from the game, as it is iconic to the Dungeons and Dragons experience.

[Tolero]

Thanks for the feedback folks, I really appreciate everyone's civility on this. Very good comments in here, keep the feedback coming.

[BangsLiekWhoa]

This new style is fine to have an an OPTION. I think everyone would be fine with it if there were a UI checkbox to enable/disable it. One state would leave descriptions as they have always been and the other would let them be as they have recently been changed to in U5.

I greatly appreciate that the devs want to make this easier to understand for the masses. However, for those of us who are long time D&D players this change is unwanted. It also poses some problems:

*It bloats already long descriptions on high end items and the like.
*It also feels less like D&D.
*It is not clear as to the actual distribution of damage (2d6 is not the same as 1d12).

There is my opinion on the matter. It works well to introduce people to the system, but please let us turn it off if we want to.

[Naash]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

Make an opton box in the UI settings for D&D text/MMO text.
Box 1 would have all UI descriptions appear as they do now on live.
Box 2 would have all UI descriptions appear as they do now on Lamania,that way when new players get comfortable with the numbers/dice basics they can tick box 1.

[Steiner-Davion]

the Post I Specifically Responded To Tried To Coach Feedback. A Simple Response Of "i Don't Like It" Or "reverse The Changes" Is Proper Feedback, Particularly In This Case When It Is A Matter Of Taste. Many Have Put More Descriptive Reasons (fidelity To Pnp, Dumbing The Game Down To The Lowest Common Denominator, Too Wordy), But Really Some People's Feedback Is Simply That It Sucks Change It Back. That's Actionable. Reverse The Change If Enough People Hate It. It's Not Like There Is Some Server Crashing Potential If The Descriptions Are Not Changed.

qft

[Cyr]

So in that case "reversing" something because people said "I don't like it the way it's going to be" means I'm supposed to tell all the other people who said "I don't like it the way it is now" that they're out of luck?

We want to hear both sides of things. We have plenty of people telling us why they are intimidated or turned off by the current descriptions, so in the battle of "I don't like it" details are important

Post script: this thread has a lot of very good details so far.

This is about what is valid feedback. "All those other people" (I know I've seen those hordes commenting here) can post that it is hard to understand otherwise and give their feedback in the same manner. It's all valid. Stating your views is the basis of feedback. In depth analysis and alternative proposals are just gravy. Why is there an inset idea that the only valid feedback is feedback that can change someone's mind by itself? Numbers should speak just as loudly.

Oh and should you tell someone you are out of luck? You really made me laugh at this one after all the nerfs in this update. Yeah, I'm sure no one feels that Turbine just kicked them right in the...well you know where... at the moment

[Zion_Halcyon]

Maybe this is too simple to satiate the nerd rage, but what about keeping the Dice descriptions as is, but slapping an * by all dice listing, and then where you have the "D&D Dice" description, just put another * down there with the description of what it does.

OR

Make the dice text like 1d6 a different color, and when you hover over it, you get the explanation of what 1d6 is, for instance.

[dragonruler]

While I have previously half-heartedly accepted some of the dumb down changes to the game because of the influx of new people. I have to say the change to the description of spells is a final straw.

Tolero asked for a detailed/action reasoning for dislikes....well hold on to your hat Sally we're going to town.

Reason 1) The original concept of the dice roll is not that hard to comprehend. To quote the Geico commercials, "It's so easy a caveman could do it."

Reason 2) It is a change to the core rules of the original D&D book descriptions. While you may still have the original D&D description in the bottom you are still altering material that has been in place since it's creation.

Reason 3) If you prefer a different way of explaining how the dice rolls are done put it in one of your tool tips that you create for new players. Simple as that. If new players decide to turn them off and become confused on what's taking place that is their own fault.

Reason 4) I dislike that Turbine is taking away from the basic concept of D&D and basically dumbing it down to a higher visual quality version of WoW. /gag

Reason 5) I have been playing the game for four years and the only problem I had with it when I started was at the beginning you got dumped in the Wavecrest Tavern and you basically were on your own.

Reason 6) I like that you guys decided to introduce an introductory section so that new players can understand what is happening but there is no need to further dumb down this game. For example, the easy button valve in STK. People got through that section just fine before it. Yea on elite it may have caused problems but that is why it is called ELITE!

Reason 7) I feel that the game is losing a lot of it's challenge. It's becoming too boring to play because everything has gotten scaled down and made easy it's like where's the challenge? The only sort of "challenge" is epic and even that a lot of people are breezing through those quests.

I feel like the game is losing a lot of it's original quality that made it fun. I remember first starting not knowing a single thing about what to do in game, anything about D&D in general, or even how to play an MMO. But I managed to get through it. It took me a little bit of time to fully understand some concepts but that is to be expected.

Quite frankly the newer players have it easy. It's like we are handing them all of the information on a silver platter and all it does is teach them how to play. They are essentially missing out on what the true concept of the game is all about. I didn't know diddly about D&D when I started but after playing the game (granted it's nothing like the pen and paper version) I learned basic concepts of what Dungeons and Dragons was about and I grew to appreciate the game more.

There you have it Tolero. There is my reasoning as to why I don't like the new change.

[lutherl]

Actually it is 4 to 6 but the thing is, depending on how close to a die roll this gets. 1d3 is actually 1d4-1 with 1 being both 1 and 2 on a die roll. So while it would technically be 4-6 damage, you would more likely roll for 4 damage than you would for 5 or 6.

1d4 -1 +3 is the actual pnp version

Just a side comment. lol

That's an...interesting interpretation of 1d3. Is that "official"? Because we always used abs(D6). So 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3.

However, I'd have to side with the protestations against the change, not for nostalgia's sake, but because 3d6's probability curve isn't well represented with 3-18.

[Cyr]

I did. I did so in the other thread and did it again now too.

And this falls under the incorrect descriptions when they are listed as 1d6 and that should be corrected to properly reflect how it actually works in game.

Kudos for your continued vigilance on this front Borro0.

[uhgungawa]

I hate to say it, but I think that they are planning to get rid of the dice system altogether slowly. In PnP it works, but in an MMO setting they are having too many problems. Lets face it the game would be a lot better if they could just another system than what's in place. But it wouldn't be D&D. The game is what it is and that's why we play it.

In the end Turbine should just make a separate unlicensed MMO and use what they have learned in the last 4 years from here and LotRo and make a fresh game, (this style, not like LotRo). But leave this one as is. I for one would try it.

[Sylvurdragon]

Prior to 3.0, Thief was the name of the class. Rogue referred to Thieves and Bards

LOL I know this It's good to have old school D&D'ers around :-D

[Steiner-Davion]

So in that case "reversing" something because people said "I don't like it the way it's going to be" means I'm supposed to tell all the other people who said "I don't like it the way it is now" that they're out of luck?

No, a better way would have bee nt osolicit feedback form the community as to how to help educate the community.

We want to hear both sides of things. We have plenty of people telling us why they are intimidated or turned off by the current descriptions, so in the battle of "I don't like it" details are important

that fact that you (Turbine) have people telling you they have problems understanding this, and threads like the ones Borror0 has written on incomplete, inaccurate and vauge descriptions should tell you that there might be a bigger underlying problem.

If the system, or notation in this case, has worked for 40 years, it isn't borken.

[Borror0]

And this falls under the incorrect descriptions when they are listed as 1d6 and that should be corrected to properly reflect how it actually works in game.

Kudos for your continued vigilance on this front Borro0.

Thanks. I think Shocking Grasp is not on my list, though. I blame that on the fact that nearly all spells show the wrong dice.

[Xeriphim]

I agree with folks who say that it's not about a description (honestly, that's a minor thing to me), it's about the underlying philosophy of what this change represents. To me it's a violation of the D&D license and I'm really upset by this. I realize I'm getting all nerd ragey over what ultimately has little impact in terms of gameplay, but shifting the idea of dice to be a second-class citizen in DDO feels wrong to the core.

QFT

I could not have posted my thoughts as well as Mockduck posts . He relays the same belief that I feel with the underlying philosophy of the change cheapens the game into something that is not D&D . I pay a monthly subscription for playing online D&D not EQ / WoW or other fantasy mmo's . this proposed change removes the Identity the whole D20 system is asscoiciated with D&D .

If Turbine wishes to simplify the dice notations the previous ly suggested notation example of 2d6 ( 2- 12 ) . or that and having a breif pop up blurp during the tutorial on korthos isle both would be accepted as a comprimise . I would not be in favor of it but would accept it as an alternative .

[Steiner-Davion]

Post script: this thread has a lot of very good details so far.

[citation needed]

I believe it is Screen Shot or it didn't happen.

[kingfisher]

I did. I did so in the other thread and did it again now too.

of course you did sweetheart, now dont break your arm

[sephiroth1084]

This post is nothing but me rehashing what I said in the other thread, but since you've asked for it...

In Magic The Gathering, there are some keywords used in place of the full explanation of the attribute or ability. Keywords have three functions: they ease communication by giving a single word to communicate the ability, instead of a phrase; they reduce the amount of words on a card for that ability, leaving room for more abilities which, in turn, expends the design space; and they make more complex cards easier to read to veteran players.

Of course, there is a drawback to keywords: it's harder for new players to understand a card.

That is why the cards in core sets - the sets aimed at new players - have reminder texts for each keyword. The goal is that "that way new players will get to learn what all the basic Magic abilities (like flying, first strike, fear, and vigilance) actually do. Hopefully, by the time they move up to expert level sets they won't be confused when they run into a keyword like 'defender' and everybody just winds up happier than they have been." Additionally, when a new keyword is introduced in a block, commons have a reminder text for that keyword but rares cards might not.

This is the model DDO should be copying, as it achieves the best of both world.

In DDO, the places where a reminder text belongs could be:

1. All feats that have a requirement that can be achieved before BAB 6.
2. Level 3 spells and lower.
3. All items whose ML is lower than 6.
4. All skills.
5. All enhancements below level 6.
6. Anything that the player is unlikely to have read about before that moment, even if it is high level.

By following these guidelines, it should cover most of the gameplay experience while not harassing veterans with stuff they already know like what a d6 or what being paralyzed means. The problem of keywords making the game hard to learn is real, but wordiness is a problem too.

For example, the description of Shocking Grasp could read:
"Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6). (A d6 is a six sided dice. The number preceding it refers to the number of dice thrown at once.)"

By the way, here are a few things that could use a reminder text:

• All conditions (explaining what it does)
• All abilities (explaining the basic of what it grants)
• Everything with a bonus type (explaining stacking)
• Dodge and Exceptional bonuses (explaining how it stacks)
• Hate/aggro (explaining what it is, a bit)
• DC (what it does)
• Damage Reduction
• Critical multiplier
• Threat range
• Active blocking
• Confirmation roll
• Glancing blow
• Grazing Hits
• Natural 20
• Possibly other stuff in that list I didn't think of

By the way, you can find examples of good description here.

Excellent idea, though I'd be in favor of adding reminder to text just about everything (so long as it is correct), not just lvl 6 and below stuff, but with an option to turn it off for those who don't need it. MTGO does this on their on-line cards, where there is an option to hide reminder text.

[Arlathen]

I suffered from Nerd Rage in the previous thread. Please forgive me.

Now for some constructuve feedback:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear

I don't honestly believe that showing die roll ranges using the xDy + Num representation is confusing or difficult.

New players should be encouraged to embrace this largely unique facet of the DDO MMO system, and is part of what helps to keep DDO so different AND better than other MMOs out there.

As has been suggested before hand, teach new players in Korthos how to read this representation by using the help boxes.

Despite playing DDO for 18+ months, when the NPE Korthos was rolled out I happily grabbed a new alt and played through Korthos. I have to say the hint boxes while they come thick and fast at times, are excellant for explaining core concepts as new players encounter them.

• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most

Very little, unfortunately. The colouring is nice, and I would suggest this element could be kept for the standard text descriptions pre-update 5.

• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

1. Misrepresentation of probability ranges (as has been illustrated above, 2-12 vs. 2D6 for example).
2. Extended text descriptions on items that even my 24" monitor in 1920x1080 resolution could not fully display.
3. Deviation from core D&D philosophy on using dice rolling to see if an action suceeds (I understand its still happening in the background, but it would be lost on new players not realising this).
4. Watering down of DDO uniqueness compared to other market leading MMOs.
5. Extended text strings on such descriptions as Spell Difficulty Class calculations that would make tool tips much too large.

I'll leave it there it think so that I don't end up repeating myself.

PS I may not be a VIP subscriber, but I am a Premium 'Life Time subscription' who voted for this game with my wallet. Please listen and understand the angst this is causing