New Dice notation. Do not like.

[dunklezhan]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

OK then Mr-or-Mrs T sir-or-madam depending-on-which-of-you-wants-to-read-this, here goes:

With regard tooltip changes generally (note i'm not on lamannia, but i have read the threads & release notes and see the screenshots - this isn't a gameplay issue so i feel I'm ok to comment without experiencing first hand. apologies if this is not the case):

• they are clear in my opinion. However, if the feedback you are getting from somewhere (lord knows where, I haven't seen any confusion from anyone in game) is that its too difficult, then please just move the dice notation to a more prominent position and swap the new notation down to the bottom. Or just write "5d6 (5-30)" (arguments over loaded dice to one side)
• I like what I'm hearing about durations showing up on tooltips, and that they will show for weapon sets dragged to hotbars
• I don't like the idea of lessening the prominence of dice notation for pure numbers which skew the variability unrealisticaly anyway (back to loaded dice here - 5d6 is simply NOT going to give you 5-30 in this game, its going to give you 10-30 which is actually a much lower variance, mathmatically speaking)

I'm not berating anyone with that I hope. I understand the need for a balance with non DnD players - as I said in my first post - but I wouldn't log into WoW and expect to see everquest notations just because Everquest was bigger and 'first' when WoW launched. If you start playing a new game - online or 'real', MMO, RPG or Board game - you should expect to have to learn new rules. This is not an unreasonable expectation.

thanks for listening.

[Missing_Minds]

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
  This is Dungeons and Dragons. The descriptions were already clear using the historically used xdy notation.
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
  Nothing. I HATE it. It also makes descriptions longer text wise.
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least
  It makes it look like you are telling long time players of DnD, and I'm talking original, 1st, 2nd, 3.x, and maybe even 4.0 you are too stupid to figure out how much damage you can do, so we are going to make it simple for you.

If you really want to help new players, CREATE VIDEO GUIDES already. Pause the game playback, and use sport markers, circles, etc. in the video to explain things, point things out, etc.

That PDF manual guide that is out there? Either get rid of it or actually fix ALL of the issues that are in it.

Make a page in the compendium that explains things. Follow the layouts in
http://www.d20srd.org/
or
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
or
http://www.systemreferencedocuments....sage/home.html

For "full listings" in the compendium. The current layout is sorely lacking and the search function is worthless.
Try finding out about how to make past lives work at some point using only the search function. I swear, Turbine must be using the same search engine for the compendium that is used with searching for Processes where I work.

P.S. uh.. dunklezhan, Tolero is female, Tarrant is male.

[Sylvurdragon]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

Good afternoon Tolero. To answer your question in your format:

Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear: I agree with others that state for the first 10 levels perhaps, include the x to y damage as an afterthought to the xDy D&D rules. That or allow players the option to turn this off in the UI. I know the later part is more difficult as this code is embedded into the items themselves right? You could always set it up like: 1d6 for each level (or 1 to 6 damage for a maximum of 30 at level 5.)

Aspects of the current changes that you like the most I can be honest and state that there is very little that I like about this particular change...I understand it being easier for newer players but after level 10 they should understand what the die system is

Aspects of the current changes that you like the least This is a D&D game. Putting the d20 system down as an afterthought takes away from the game that many pencil and paper fans grew to love. If this change is going to stay, can we at least reverse this so that the die roll is and always be what this game is based on?

That is all, I hope that this is constructive enough.

[Tolero]

When you guys don't get feedback you like, it's labeled as not proper feedback.

We like all feedback. Even negative feedback. (Particularly negative feedback that contains details and examples). It's gotta follow the guidelines though, and if it's not actionable then it's not going to go very far. Specifically in cases where someone says "I don't like" without details. This can result in a change that makes the problem worse rather than better because all we got out of it was "don't like" minus the "why" vs the other people telling us what they don't like about the way it was =/ Details are important, as too is following the forum rules.

[Hendrik]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

Aspects of the current changes that you like the most;

Helps the new-to-D&D/DDO players.

Aspects of the current changes that you like the least;

Feels like a slap in the face to the Vets of D&D/DDO. We know these things, they are things we have been using in some cases for decades! Then to spell it out in crayon. Ouch.

This HAS merit! It IS a good idea! It WILL help those you want it to! But for the rest of 'us', make it an option. PLEASE! Allow 'us' to decide how to have our information presented.

A checkbox to Enable/Disable.

/respect

[Mockduck]

Now, I understand that we're current DDO players and not privy to some "behind the scenes" information, but I really question the statement that the idea of dice being rolled is too confusing to non D&Ders. I just don't buy that there's thousands of new players out there that can't get their heads around the concept of a dice roll. Have they never played a board game that involved basic addition?

In regards to actionable feedback, there's simply nothing I like about the change to recommend. The underlying philosophy of the change is offensive. The need for the change seems questionable.

If it HAS to happen for whatever reason, then at the very least it should be a description of 5d6 (5-30). Dice should remain a core primary concept of DDO as in D&D.

[Newtons_Apple]

In effort to continue proper feedback;

On one hand;

I like the change for the PnP/D&D inexperienced players.

The other;

I STRONGLY dislike it as a long time PnP/D&D player. I know the rules and meanings and prefer not to have it spelled out for me in crayon.

PLEASE take this feedback to the powers at hand;

Make this an option. Make it default to "ON", but allow us to NOT have it on. Please. Thank you.

This is probably the best compromise. I would like to see my dice, just the way I've always seen them.

Just as a comment, I've done a bit of programming myself. I've written utilities for others to use to facilitate data processing, with detailed step by step instructions and reminders (much like the dice) along the way so each step is clear and easily understood.

But I would still get questions about how they worked or comments that they were too complicated. At the end of the day, the more I would "dummy it down" for them, the dumber the people using them would appear to be. It's called willful ignorance - when a person has something done for them, is content to allow others to do it for them and therefore has no impetus to try.

You can't make everyone understand, whether they don't try or just plain don't get it. It's impossible. The more you "dummy it down" for them, the more you're enabling their willful ignorance, and the less good you're doing them.

[lutherl]

1d3+3 /= 1 to 6

/signed

Well of course not. It's 4 to 6.

[dunklezhan]

P.S. uh.. dunklezhan, Tolero is female, Tarrant is male.

ta muchly. fixed. ish.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

A checkbox to Enable/Disable.

I disagree with this (although it would be better than nothing).

The reason I disagree is that this is a D&D franchise. It should look like one and take the action needed to teach new people the D&D terminology. Let's bring them into the world and give them that flavor!

[Karranor]

Why couldn't you leave the descriptions as they were and add a footnote that it is X to X damage? It seems to do the same thing to inform the player but leaves the D&D in.

[Vhlad]

If an item says:
3-12

Is that 3d4 or 1d10+2 or a random number between 3 and 12 with an equal probability of each number?

Without the dice info, when a new item or spell is released, you will have players asking a similar question each time. Dice info gives us a probability distribution. It's important!

Now, I understand that we're current DDO players and not privy to some "behind the scenes" information, but I really question the statement that the idea of dice being rolled is too confusing to non D&Ders. I just don't buy that there's thousands of new players out there that can't get their heads around the concept of a dice roll. Have they never played a board game that involved basic addition?

In regards to actionable feedback, there's simply nothing I like about the change to recommend. The underlying philosophy of the change is offensive. The need for the change seems questionable.

If it HAS to happen for whatever reason, then at the very least it should be a description of 5d6 (5-30). Dice should remain a core primary concept of DDO as in D&D.

This post states my feelings well. In addition to inaccuracy, I find the change offensive. I won't quit the game over nerfs, but a change this offensive and educationally degenerate can make me cancel my 6 month sub. It's the principle.

[Cyr]

We like all feedback. Even negative feedback. (Particularly negative feedback that contains details and examples). It's gotta follow the guidelines though, and if it's not actionable then it's not going to go very far. Specifically in cases where someone says "I don't like" without details. This can result in a change that makes the problem worse rather than better because all we got out of it was "don't like" minus the "why" vs the other people telling us what they don't like about the way it was =/ Details are important, as too is following the forum rules.

The post I specifically responded to tried to coach feedback. A simple response of "I don't like it" or "Reverse the changes" is proper feedback, particularly in this case when it is a matter of taste. Many have put more descriptive reasons (fidelity to pnp, dumbing the game down to the lowest common denominator, too wordy), but really some people's feedback is simply that it sucks change it back. That's actionable. Reverse the change if enough people hate it. It's not like there is some server crashing potential if the descriptions are not changed.

[Missing_Minds]

If an item says:
3-12

Is that 3d4 or 1d10+2 or a random number between 3 and 12 with an equal probability of each number?

Without the dice info, when a new item or spell is released, you will have players asking a similar question each time. Dice info gives us a probability distribution. It's important!

oo... ouch. Extreamly true.

You know.. if I weren't so lazy, I'd be half tempted to go poke a Wizard that lives on the Coast about this change to see what they had to say.

[Sylvurdragon]

Well of course not. It's 4 to 6.

Actually it is 4 to 6 but the thing is, depending on how close to a die roll this gets. 1d3 is actually 1d4-1 with 1 being both 1 and 2 on a die roll. So while it would technically be 4-6 damage, you would more likely roll for 4 damage than you would for 5 or 6.

1d4 -1 +3 is the actual pnp version

Just a side comment. lol

[Tolero]

The post I specifically responded to tried to coach feedback. A simple response of "I don't like it" or "Reverse the changes" is proper feedback, particularly in this case when it is a matter of taste. Many have put more descriptive reasons (fidelity to pnp, dumbing the game down to the lowest common denominator, too wordy), but really some people's feedback is simply that it sucks change it back. That's actionable. Reverse the change if enough people hate it. It's not like there is some server crashing potential if the descriptions are not changed.

So in that case "reversing" something because people said "I don't like it the way it's going to be" means I'm supposed to tell all the other people who said "I don't like it the way it is now" that they're out of luck?

We want to hear both sides of things. We have plenty of people telling us why they are intimidated or turned off by the current descriptions, so in the battle of "I don't like it" details are important

Post script: this thread has a lot of very good details so far.

[rdasca]

I have no problem with players providing feedback on the change. Particularly, if you don't like the chance, please also include information such as:

• Your own suggestions for how to make description text numbers more clear
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the most
• Aspects of the current changes that you like the least

Such details are very very important and imperative. Saying "I hate it all" or "take it back" is not helpful or actionable. There is a middle ground to be had between expecting brand new players to learn about dice they don't get the joy of rolling and showing off the D&D rules set. Just again, make sure that it's actionable feedback that is in the forum guidelines.

Ok, here goes:
Make it better: no need; it is not needed 2d6 or 5d8 or whatever it just fine the way it is. If you must "make the text more clear" then do something like 2d6 (2-12) they way it is done on most weapons descriptions now.
What I like best: Nothing at all, this is D&D not some other game, if I wanted to play something else I would.
What I like least: See above.

IMO, you are very wrong about new players, if they do not "get the joy" of learning about DDO and what makes this MMO different from all the clones of another not to be mentioned MMO out there, then why play DDO?

DDO is suppose to be a d20 D&D game online, or at least as close to it as possible, really there is zero reason to make this change, and I find it very difficult to believe that Turbine has all that many people pestering GMs with "What does 3d6 mean?" questions.

So, leave it the way it is or if you must then put the x-x in percentages at the tail end of the xdx, but do not change the core D&D system to accommodate a very small group of players.

[Hendrik]

I disagree with this (although it would be better than nothing).

The reason I disagree is that this is a D&D franchise. It should look like one and take the action needed to teach new people the D&D terminology. Let's bring them into the world and give them that flavor!

I just do not want to see it on my screen. But I will have to admit, this 'new' way may help some people. That's a good thing.

I do agree with you and many other good posts here; this is D&D! I also feel this is an affront to the couple decade's I have spent playing and learning D&D, not to mention the years 'invested' here.

Some people do not want to learn, think, or be taught. This will fit right in for them.

I want an option for Enable/Disable to make the choice for myself. I understand this is going Live, that's fine. If they can add a Checkbox before launch, great! If they need to patch one in sooner then later, great!

I chosen the Enable/Disable route as it might be the 'easiest'* way to fix this for all involved.



*Everytime someone mentions how easy something will be do to, a DEV feeds a kitten to the Cube. Sorry lil kitten!

[Sylvurdragon]

So in that case "reversing" something because people said "I don't like it the way it's going to be" means I'm supposed to tell all the other people who said "I don't like it the way it is now" that they're out of luck?

We want to hear both sides of things. We have plenty of people telling us why they are intimidated or turned off by the current descriptions, so in the battle of "I don't like it" details are important

Post script: this thread has a lot of very good details so far.

I know its a relatively thankless job, but as much as I dislike the change, I appreciate you taking time out to listen to our feedback and take an actionable approach to what we have to say.

[bradleyforrest]

all the other people who said "I don't like it the way it is now"

[citation needed]