Feedback: Guild Leveling

[Coldin]

Unfortunately, we're still mostly in the dark about how this works. Because at the higher levels, there was talk about it degrading your rep unless you kept it up.

But with how much renown it's going to take to get to level 20 (is probably going to be 100,000 or more. Might even be 1,000,000). I just don't see how kobold farming would be productive. There has to be some way to get some guaranteed amounts of renown.

[Ganak]

I feel that there should be significant Renown awards for really, really tough achievements in game.

/agree



Moreover, since the difficult quest achievements are P2P, it may encourage players to buy these quests helping the financial model.

[DANTEIL]

So tonight, in a completely unscientific fashion, I logged on to Lammania with my unguilded Wizard, and ran Butcher's Path twice, whereupon I picked up lots and lots of collectibles from the dead mobs - but no Heroic Deeds. Then, I spent some of my precious Lammania TP to create a guild, and then reran Butcher's Path two more times. The first time, I got 3x50 Heroic Deeds for 150 Guild Renown. woo! The second time, I got nada except for more collectibles.

So my tentative conclusion (but only tentative) is that only people in guilds will see Heroic Deeds. I could easily be proven wrong, however. E.g., I was soloing -- so what happens if a guilded character is in the same parter as a nonguilded character?

[Coldin]

So tonight, in a completely unscientific fashion, I logged on to Lammania with my unguilded Wizard, and ran Butcher's Path twice, whereupon I picked up lots and lots of collectibles from the dead mobs - but no Heroic Deeds. Then, I spent some of my precious Lammania TP to create a guild, and then reran Butcher's Path two more times. The first time, I got 3x50 Heroic Deeds for 150 Guild Renown. woo! The second time, I got nada except for more collectibles.

So my tentative conclusion (but only tentative) is that only people in guilds will see Heroic Deeds. I could easily be proven wrong, however. E.g., I was soloing -- so what happens if a guilded character is in the same parter as a nonguilded character?

Most likely the guilded character will receive deeds, the non guilded character won't. I imagine people from two seperate guilds will receive deeds for their individual guilds.

[Asketes]

I feel that there should be significant Renown awards for really, really tough achievements in game.

As a few examples:

Tower of Despair, Suulomades chest: 1000 normal, 2500 Hard, 5000 Elite
ADQ1 Epic: 2500
VON5 Epic: 3500 (it's not harder than ADQ1, but takes a lot longer)
Stealer of Souls, Sor'jek chest: 240 normal, 600 Hard, 1200 Elite
Dreaming Dark Elite: 500
Bastion/Genesis Point/New Invasion/Sins of Attrition: 100/250/500
Prey on the Hunter, Dragon chests: 100/200/500

And so on. Basically, this provides a real incentive for running the hardest content in the game.

I like this

[Sweetsoul86]

Without more information and answers to the questions already asked I find it hard to provide any legitimate feedback. The only thing I can say so far is that it seems far too much like a lowbie quest grind for it to have any real enjoyment in it.

Some of the ideas suggested in this thread seem to have more merit to them than what we're seeing so far. I think maybe having it be like favor with a certain amount per quest per difficulty and then adding in extras for optionals or when randomly spawning named monsters are taken down.

[Flixxer]

Yeah totally agree need to implement renown which is given on completion of the quest, because with current system high level quests do not drop anything or bags which I collected did not contain renown. And as I said to farm low level quests for renown is a bit ********.

[kailiea]

I soled and ran with friends a bunch of quests from Giant hold to Amrath on hard and elite and saw absolutely zero renowned. However I went and ran kobold assault and got 200 :P

As it stands now the system is either broken or not fully implemented and because of this fact it is impossible to do any legitimate testing. At this point I think that the system isn't entirely turned on so that we can't grind out an airship prior to update 5's release.

If the only way to achieve renowned at this point is to find it randomly in bags or end chests/rewards then I am not a fan of the system. I think you should drop renowned from random bags still but something needs to be static with the system. I think the completion of a quest should reward you a set amount of renowned and the difficulty should dictate the amount.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't like how guild renown became a whole separate channel of rewards, as that means it is likely to be less balanced and lead to undesirable behavior such as high-level characters farming a low-level dungeon that happens to be thick with monsters who drop bags.

It seems it would be better if instead any time you earn XP, the guild gets a small percentage of that as renown. That way the automatic protections against inappropriate character level would kick in, and players would naturally get more renown by doing activities that are more challenging, or at least more impressive. (This method would need a few more tweaks: add XP to epic dungeon completion, and disregard repetition penalties when figuring XP->renown).

[moorewr]

I don't like how guild renown became a whole separate channel of rewards, as that means it is likely to be less balanced and lead to undesirable behavior such as high-level characters farming a low-level dungeon that happens to be thick with monsters who drop bags.

Exactly right. I just participated in an entire guild of level 20s farming Butcher's Path on casual. That can *not* be what Turbine envisioned happening, or if it is, it is not wise.

It seems it would be better if instead any time you earn XP, the guild gets a small percentage of that as renown. That way the automatic protections against inappropriate character level would kick in, and players would naturally get more renown by doing activities that are more challenging, or at least more impressive. (This method would need a few more tweaks: add XP to epic dungeon completion, and disregard repetition penalties when figuring XP->renown).

I'd like renown rewarded by some combination of favor granted times the level of the quest.. elite ToD should be worth many, many multiples of casual Butcher's Path.

[Towrn]

I don't like how guild renown became a whole separate channel of rewards, as that means it is likely to be less balanced and lead to undesirable behavior such as high-level characters farming a low-level dungeon that happens to be thick with monsters who drop bags.

It seems it would be better if instead any time you earn XP, the guild gets a small percentage of that as renown. That way the automatic protections against inappropriate character level would kick in, and players would naturally get more renown by doing activities that are more challenging, or at least more impressive. (This method would need a few more tweaks: add XP to epic dungeon completion, and disregard repetition penalties when figuring XP->renown).

The only problem I see with this idea is it would be unfair for smaller guilds who dont have as many people running quests as larger guilds.

I'm all for a better system, but don't want to see anyone left off the boat (airship).

[MadFloyd]

So tonight, in a completely unscientific fashion, I logged on to Lammania with my unguilded Wizard, and ran Butcher's Path twice, whereupon I picked up lots and lots of collectibles from the dead mobs - but no Heroic Deeds. Then, I spent some of my precious Lammania TP to create a guild, and then reran Butcher's Path two more times. The first time, I got 3x50 Heroic Deeds for 150 Guild Renown. woo! The second time, I got nada except for more collectibles.

So my tentative conclusion (but only tentative) is that only people in guilds will see Heroic Deeds. I could easily be proven wrong, however. E.g., I was soloing -- so what happens if a guilded character is in the same parter as a nonguilded character?

You are correct.

[Towrn]

Any chance those of us snooping around Lamma could get a little itty bitty teeny weeny response from one of you about our testing and thoughts about all the guild stuff? Preferably in the Feedback: Guild Leveling thread

You are correct.

This is not what I meant by a little itty bitty teeny weeny response.

But I guess thats what I get for asking for something so vague.

[MadFloyd]

Exactly right. I just participated in an entire guild of level 20s farming Butcher's Path on casual. That can *not* be what Turbine envisioned happening, or if it is, it is not wise.

No, it's not what we intended and shouldn't be very rewarding if attempted. The higher the degree of challenge, the greater likelihood of renown.

[moorewr]

No, it's not what we intended and shouldn't be very rewarding if attempted. The higher the degree of challenge, the greater likelihood of renown.

I am relieved to see you confirm that this is not WAI.

We detected no variation in frequency of drops based on our level or difficulty setting. You'll note other posts in this thread where the reward from Kobold Assault was essentially the same as Coal Chamber.

[Coldin]

I'd REALLY like to find out some more information about this guild leveling. Like...do we really have to farm kobold assault?

[MadFloyd]

I am relieved to see you confirm that this is not WAI.

We detected no variation in frequency of drops based on our level or difficulty setting. You'll note other posts in this thread where the reward from Kobold Assault was essentially the same as Coal Chamber.

Valuable feedback - thanks. As with most things in DDO, there is a random element, so we need to canvass enough data, but we're investigating now.

[Coldin]

Valuable feedback - thanks. As with most things in DDO, there is a random element, so we need to canvass enough data, but we're investigating now.

Phew. I'm glad to hear that.

I'm not sure how quickly you intend for guilds to level up, but I think the main issue is that heroic deeds seem to have a very low chance of dropping in chests, and a much higher chance of dropping off of dead bodies. Higher level quests usually have much fewer body bags dropping compared to the harbor. That's probably due to the days of the bounty boards.

So, since kobolds tend to drop bags more often, it's easier to go farm them.

Just some thoughts. I could be completely wrong.

[Towrn]

Valuable feedback - thanks. As with most things in DDO, there is a random element, so we need to canvass enough data, but we're investigating now.

Thank You for at least opening some sort of dialogue with us about this. Such a cool system should start out right so it can get better instead of wrong so it can get fixed.

[moorewr]

Valuable feedback - thanks. As with most things in DDO, there is a random element, so we need to canvass enough data, but we're investigating now.

Well I have you on the line - obviously I only know what I've seen so far, but I'd like to put in another plea for renown to come by other mechanisms than the one you've chosen. Quest completions really should directly count for renown, and there are a number of good suggestions for the mechanism in this thread.

The collectible system has a poor causal link - in my opinion anyway. What does finding baubles have to do with how famous my guild is? It should to some extent conform to what we put in the achievements forum.. raid first completions at difficulty, etc.

Those who worry about smaller guilds - you are already on a steep slope because you have to riffle through dead bodies to get renown, and being small you are running less quests and are more likely to PUG. A Favor-based system is at least fairly "flat" in that you can get the same favor from high and low level quests.