Feedback: Guild Leveling

[Osharan_Tregarth]

That being said, while *I* might mindlessly pick up every bag (only because using the hotkey makes it painless), it's pretty clear that most of you don't (and resent having to). So we're looking into changing this so that there would be no pickup required - i.e. it would be automatic and not a choice.

Thank you MadFloyd. This change would be greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately for your original plan, I grew very tired of picking up random stuff on the ground a year or two ago.

[Deaeth]

Since the update today of lam. I went in an did very limited testing. One run of Butchers Path elite, level 4 quest on elite, as a level 20. Net me 100 renown, 2 bags 50 each. Whole quest is ransacked so no chance at chests or end rewards.

Went to do Prey on the Hunter on normal, lvl 17 quest. 1 bag for 50 renown, nothing in the 3 total chests I looted and no option for renown as an end reward.


Looks like it's back to the harbor for me!

[dasungeheuer]

That being said, while *I* might mindlessly pick up every bag (only because using the hotkey makes it painless), it's pretty clear that most of you don't (and resent having to). So we're looking into changing this so that there would be no pickup required - i.e. it would be automatic and not a choice.

Thank you. Somehow I don't think that you had "grinding kobold assault" in mind when you created the pickup mechanic.

Something that ties to quest completion, bosses vanquished, that sort of thing, would make more sense to me. Might also be tied into highest lvl in the party at the time as compared to quest level, and maybe quest difficulty / tier, again to distinguish between "L20s farming lowbie quests" and "quests / raids done at level".

No mechanic is going to be perfect. People will find a way to farm. The less grind is baked into the mechanic, the better, however.

[Xionanx]

I just cant see the reasoning behind tying this to a drop or loot.

Why not simply tie it to a % of TOTAL character XP, say 10%.

1 Level 20 Non TR Guild Member = 10% Total XP
1 Level 20 TR 1 Guild Member = 5% of Previous Life and 10% of Current Life
1 Level 20 TR 2+ Guild Member = 5% of Previous Lives and 10 % of Current Life

Then, in addition to the Renown granted by XP, give renown based on quest completions for Norm, Hard, Elite, and Epic just like favor.

Next, you could create a "Heroic Achievements" section on the character sheet similar to how "most" modern games have achievements (think XBOX360 and Ps3 Games) where specific things like "Kobold Genocide - You have personally slain over 10,000 kobolds" or "Dragon Slayer - You have killed over 100 Dragons" These "achievements" would be permanent and carry over through your TR's while once again adding to your characters personal renown, which would contribute to your guilds renown.

Finally, have the contribution degrade at a rate of 1% of the characters total renown per day that character is inactive (personal renown would/should never degrade). So, if someone is inactive for 100 days they contribute 0 to that guilds renown. This would require / encourage large guilds to form of ACTIVE players while at the same time rewarding those who choose to TR their toon's as well as those who seek out some of the more difficult "achievements".

I think its important to tie guild level and renown to the PEOPLE who are IN and ACTIVE in the guild.

Why? Because I played a game called Voyage Century that tied guild level to performing "tasks" and "quests" where a small guild of 10 people could simply dump a butt tonne of gold into buying the needed quest turn ins and just stand at the quest giver for hours at a time turning in items for guild rank. I also played Aion Online where every player had a personal "rank" and contributed to overall guild level. Gaining your personal "rank" required you to actively level your character and participate in guild raids on abyss objectives. You couldn't "buy" or "pike" your way up. So guess which system was better?

By creating "drops" that can be picked up for guild points/renown all you will end up with are a bunch of guilds full of firewall spamming casters running lowbie quests to "grind" guild renown. Which is exactly what it will be, one more "grind"....

But thats just the opinion of someone who has been playing video games for 20+ years.

Reward the PLAYERS for PLAYING
Reward the ACHIEVERS for ACHIEVING
Dont create a cheese grind for the unemployed to farm Kobold Assault

[Collanaro]

Well, I've been watching this for a while now, and am very excited. I realize this is a new feature and will probably change a lot as it's implemented and we have a chance to see how it's actually working, but I had a few thoughts I hope will be read and considered, and might even prove helpful, as feedback from an experienced, long-time player of several MMOs, who's been a member, officer and even leader of guilds, in some of them.

Recently, I saw the list of guild renown rewards that could be obtained, posted on ddowiki.com, and was rather disappointed to see that almost all of them are temporary. The only permanent thing are the augments and the airships. I love the airships and think it's a great idea that a lot can be done with. What I don't like is that everything that goes on them is transient, i.e. the crewmembers, shrines, even the guild bank. I don't even want to think about what might happen if someone forgot to renew the bank's duration and all the items in it went *poof*! Some might argue with some validity that if a guild gets to that point, it's probably dead anyway, but for smaller more casual guilds I think this could be an issue.

The 20 to 30 slot character and account banks are hardly enough for individual players. I'm constantly running out of space in mine, and I'm very choosy about what I hang on to. So in my opinion, a guild banks needs to be pretty huge. If you've got say, 20 players in your guild, from what I can see you have at the most 70 bank slots that can be used by all members, and 140 that can be used only by officers and leaders. Even with a relatively small guild that's 3.5 to 7 slots per member. Now imagine a guild with a hundred players, all wanting to contribute items to the guild bank and draw on items from the guild bank to use.

So, ideas for more permanent rewards? Well, for starters, how about some matching cosmetic gear that guild members can buy on the airship, which grow progressively more impressive as the guild levels up? That provides a visual solidarity to the guild that we and other players can see very obviously. Maybe matching helms or armor in the guild colors (give us two to four colors maybe, and it'll create enough combination possibilities that different guilds won't all be running around with the same thing). Or how about shields, armor, or cloaks with a guild coat of arms on it? Put in a bunch of motifs that can be used as the central design, things like skulls, trees, cutlasses, wavy line things, doves, etc, and maybe some different patterns and colors for the trim, base color of the armor, etc. The guild leader goes and designs it, sets it as the guild coat of arms, and poof it appears on any such piece of guild gear that a member purchases and puts on.

If mounts were ever introduced into the game, exclusive mounts you could only get by being a member of a high-level guild would be another idea. Again the guild's unique colors or coat-of-arms could be applied to these, to contribute to guild pride and identity.

Or at the very least, some permanent guild features/conveniences that once purchased belong to the guild and can be placed onto or removed from the airship at will. I know there's the vendors and stuff in House Kundarak, but it would be nice to see something non-transient and therefore more meaningful on the airships too. I'm all out of ideas for now on the guild rewards thing, but does anyone else have any thoughts on that?

Right, now about the renown gaining/decay system. I agree with everyone else that this should be based on accomplishment, on finishing quests rather than running in just for the renown loot and leaving the megalomaniac inside the dungeon free to shrug his shoulders and continue ravaging the good folk of Stormreach. That, realistically, would give a guild a bad rep rather than a good one. On a lot of other games, the top guilds are known for how much of the end-game content they've managed to clear. A guild that's successfully run the hardest raids in the game, and then done them enough times to gain the rewards that come with it, gains well-deserved recognition. They've proven they know what they're doing and players often hope to join them or look to them for advice. So, I think large amounts of renown should mainly come from accomplishing great and difficult things. It shouldn't come too easily. Thinking of the game world again, there's something to be said for a guild that looks out for the little people and runs the smaller quests and not just the big, glorious, epic raids. I'm not saying renown can't be gained that way, but it's a quieter kind of renown. Perhaps more steady, stable and long-lasting, but not on the level of whispered fame as the aforementioned great deeds. Some renown coming from lesser things like loot is okay I guess, but mostly I think it should come from end-quest/dungeon/raid rewards, from actually accomplishing something.

Another source of renown, could be from completing achievements such as your guild having completed every dungeon and raid in the Necropolis, Orchard and finally the Black Abbot Raid. Something that takes a while to complete. If that's not long enough, how about having completed every raid in the game. There could be different renown rewards for having done each at least once, on each difficulty level. That to me is something that would, realistically, attract quite a lot of attention. As an example, there's the fact that after an individual player completes the Seal of Shan-To-Kor quest line, the merchants in the marketplace all recognize your for it and offer you a discount from then on.

Another source of renown could come from having a high number of players in your guild who have completed certain dungeons, quest lines and raids. A guild known to have many great heroes in it would certainly garner recognition.

Well that's all for now, but I'm hoping this is noticed and generates some further discussion.

DDO is my favorite MMO. I've played several extensively, over the past decade. I haven't touched another one since I finally got DDO to work on my computer recently and started playing seriously. It's the MMO I always wanted, have been searching for for years, jumping unsatisfied from one MMO to another, and now finally can play. I hope to see it continue to be polished and refined and evolve into something even more brilliant than it was before as time goes by.

[Sweetsoul86]

Recently, I saw the list of guild renown rewards that could be obtained, posted on ddowiki.com, and was rather disappointed to see that almost all of them are temporary. The only permanent thing are the augments and the airships. I love the airships and think it's a great idea that a lot can be done with. What I don't like is that everything that goes on them is transient, i.e. the crewmembers, shrines, even the guild bank. I don't even want to think about what might happen if someone forgot to renew the bank's duration and all the items in it went *poof*! Some might argue with some validity that if a guild gets to that point, it's probably dead anyway, but for smaller more casual guilds I think this could be an issue.

The guild banks continue to store your items after it disappears, if you buy it again everything will still be in there.

[Solmage]

It's simply an abstract way of recognizing your adventuring prowness. We thought it might make the experience a little more enjoyable if, when picking up collectibles, you had a chance of something else.

That being said, while *I* might mindlessly pick up every bag (only because using the hotkey makes it painless), it's pretty clear that most of you don't (and resent having to). So we're looking into changing this so that there would be no pickup required - i.e. it would be automatic and not a choice.

Two quick suggestions: Auto-pickup for collectibles, and please for the love of all that's holy, add (Loot): So-and-so picked up scroll X. PLEASE.

Still, I think a lot more emphasis needs to be put on completing difficult quests on Elite/Epic, vs running von1 epic 100x. So, I am thinking about borrowing something from the favor system.

You only get renown once per quest each 6 months. Just like exp scales if a higher level goes in, renown will scale like that too. Exp used to scale upwards, and so should renown. A level 10 completing vale quests should give you a good chunk more than a level 16 doing the same.

In addition, you could build in a series of contests into the game, which if completed granted renown. For example an NPC might give you points if you manage to complete ToD without anyone dying a single time. Or if you complete the shroud in under 20 minutes. These would be 1x rewards as well, but they could spice things up. (These could also reset each X period)

I think a system like this would allow a smaller but talented guild to more than keep up with a large one, and the 'reset' each 6 months would allow for people switching guilds. Of course the actual time period would need to be adjusted to the decay rate. Perhaps it would reset each 2 months. Perhaps the decay would be slower.

More importantly, this would ACTUALLY reflect something worthy of renown. It would not feel artificial, and would remain a fun challenge, as opposed to a mindless grind to complete the easiest quests over and over. Lastly, it would encourage people to really explore and play all those quests that don't get run very often.

[Collanaro]

Well, that's good to know about the bank thing. Thanks, Sweetsoul.

As for the renown decay, I'm willing to see how it plays out before passing judgement, but my initial reaction was not a happy one

[Sweetsoul86]

Well, that's good to know about the bank thing. Thanks, Sweetsoul.

As for the renown decay, I'm willing to see how it plays out before passing judgement, but my initial reaction was not a happy one

The good thing about the decay from what I know of it so far is the fact that you won't decay below 24 which is certainly better than letting it decay completely.

[xTethx]

New Lammania Update:

3 New Invasion on Elite with 3 chests each plus end reward
3 Sins of Attrition on Elite with 5 chests each plus end reward
1 Epic Von 4 just 2 end chests
4 runs of Epic Von 2 maze both chests

Total Renown acquired: 0

Congratulations Turbine you really tested this one thoroughly.

[RTN]

It's simply an abstract way of recognizing your adventuring prowness. We thought it might make the experience a little more enjoyable if, when picking up collectibles, you had a chance of something else.

That being said, while *I* might mindlessly pick up every bag (only because using the hotkey makes it painless), it's pretty clear that most of you don't (and resent having to). So we're looking into changing this so that there would be no pickup required - i.e. it would be automatic and not a choice.

If you made more of the collectibles that drop from mobs useful in crafting (actually, are any of them useful right now?), this would be much less of a problem. The things that drop from mobs (except in the Sub-T) were semi-useful when most of us were L1-6. Past that point (where the vast majority of us are), they're useless. If you guys finally tackle a better crafting system based on collectibles, etc. (not the Shroud or hated Reaver's Reach crafting), people will be much more willing to pick up the collectible bags that drop from mobs.

[moorewr]

New Lammania Update:

3 New Invasion on Elite with 3 chests each plus end reward
3 Sins of Attrition on Elite with 5 chests each plus end reward
1 Epic Von 4 just 2 end chests
4 runs of Epic Von 2 maze both chests

Total Renown acquired: 0

Congratulations Turbine you really tested this one thoroughly.

[Deaeth]

New Lammania Update:

3 New Invasion on Elite with 3 chests each plus end reward
3 Sins of Attrition on Elite with 5 chests each plus end reward
1 Epic Von 4 just 2 end chests
4 runs of Epic Von 2 maze both chests

Total Renown acquired: 0

Congratulations Turbine you really tested this one thoroughly.

OHHHH, add my at level 20, 1 four minute run of Butchers Path on elite: 100 renown from 2 bags, all chests and end reward ransacked to the point of no drops!

[CavernDragon]

If you made more of the collectibles that drop from mobs useful in crafting (actually, are any of them useful right now?), this would be much less of a problem. The things that drop from mobs (except in the Sub-T) were semi-useful when most of us were L1-6. Past that point (where the vast majority of us are), they're useless. If you guys finally tackle a better crafting system based on collectibles, etc. (not the Shroud or hated Reaver's Reach crafting), people will be much more willing to pick up the collectible bags that drop from mobs.

I agree that the collectibles should be use for crafting, Some of them are useful but most just end up taking space in my bags till there full only to get sorted and dumped. Now if you start putting plat in bags I might be more willing to pick them up

[Sarezar]

One weird thing is that Kobolds do not drop any more bags than any other monster (or so I am told). You guys clearly think otherwise. Hmm.

They probably drop more because there are more of them. Same for giants, undeads, and hobgoblins. It's a placebo effect.

[moorewr]

They probably drop more because there are more of them. Same for giants, undeads, and hobgoblins. It's a placebo effect.

That's not what placebo means.

[Sarezar]

That's not what placebo means.

I know what placebo means. I just focused on the "fake" part instead of the "positive" part. You just took it too literally.

[Coldin]

Still not really the right placement for placebo....

Anyway. Did a little bit more questing, and still not really seeing any positive change in the droprate from chests and end rewards. Maybe this build didn't have any changes in it.

But I do think it's very important to make it clear that renown dropping in chests and end rewards needs to be very consistent. As it stands right now, I never get to act like the selfless hero, turning away my reward. The NPCs always jam it down my throat.

End rewards, in my opinion, should have a near 100% chance to drop renown. Chests should have 50%. Bags, if they drop renown at all, should be of some insignificant amount, especially since bags seem to be the easiest way to exploit the renown system.

[Karrantine]

Noticed the 'quantity over quality' effect - Routinely kick 900-1200 renown out of one run of Elite Kobold Assault with a full guild party, which is about the same we get out of Elite Acid Wit with the same, excepting the extremely rare 500-point bag (Got one of those in there once). It just don't seem right.

[moorewr]

I know what placebo means. I just focused on the "fake" part instead of the "positive" part. You just took it too literally.

I'm still not following you. Farming low level quests like Butcher's Path actually does provide more active ingredients. That's why people on Lamannia do it. It's the opposite of a placebo.