Feedback: Guild Leveling

[kailiea]

Are we going to see the an update before this goes live next week to make sure the system works 100 percent? Or can we expect it to go live as is with patches to follow at a later date?

[altagar]

Aaaarrrgh. I think we're all unlucky at this point. I believe there's a serious bug where renown is not appearing in chests or end rewards.

Considering that these are the two most important places to get 'serious' renown, the system is pretty much dead in the water for the weekend.

Thanks to all who helped shed light on this and my apologies for the frustration.

MadFloyd, did you mean to say "the system is pretty much dead in the water for the weekends"? Here we are on Thursday with the same stuff, and no word from anyone on when the next update might be.

[Sarr]

Sarr,

Have that maybe how it is working, but that is not what is written in the current version of the release notes under Guilds & Airships:

LAMANNIA ONLY - Guild trophies that are dropped by monsters are now automatically applied to everyone in the dungeon when the monster is defeated. No longer rooting through collectable bags! Drop rates have been increased and values adjusted. All monsters now have a chance of granting guild renown, not just those that possess collectables.


Have you submitted a bug report?

Hmm, then my fault here. I didn't read it accurately then. I'll check it again, but that's how it looked to me and I think not only me. We'll check it again.
But still, hirelings and other summoned creatures don't grant any renown. In other words, those are 100% wasted kills Renown wise.

Thanks for that quote, I'll double check it on present Lamannia build. If there's a bug, it will be submitted.

[Coldin]

Hmm, then my fault here. I didn't read it accurately then. I'll check it again, but that's how it looked to me and I think not only me. We'll check it again.
But still, hirelings and other summoned creatures don't grant any renown. In other words, those are 100% wasted kills Renown wise.

Thanks for that quote, I'll double check it on present Lamannia build. If there's a bug, it will be submitted.

Not sure what you mean. That when a hireling kills a monster, noone in the party gets renown? Or that when a monster is killed, everyone gets renown, except the hireling?

If it's the former, it's a bug. But, it could also simply be bad luck and you wouldn't have got renown from that monster anyway.

If it's the latter, why should having a hireling give your guild renown. They have their own guilds they're earning renown for.

[Zenako]

I think what Sarr was seeing was much like how the Ice Coins would drop from Fire Mobs. ONLY the character closest to the mob when it died would get a coin.

So it seemed to him that only one character (the one closest) was getting reknown when a mob death resulted in Reknown, not the entire party (as was inferred in the write up and as it would happen if everyone snagged the collectible bags that used to drop).

Since most testing on Lam is probably solo, this kind of thing would be hard to notice. IF you were using hirelings or mobs, you would never know you just missed out on getting reknown and the killing mob has no use for the Reknown.

They might have done this to prevent what had seemed to be happening where everyone in the PARTY was getting reknown, even if they were in another quest somewhere. It would be possible in theory to have 6 players in 6 different quests or instances of a quest all running the same quest and farming reknown for themselves and each other. At some point more players in the same quest is overkill and a waste of time and resources. Think having six high level casters, each in their own version of Irestone, Kobold Assualt or Tears and blasting thru those quests.

So they need to have a "in quest" check for getting reknown for that quest I would guess. By using the promixity limits like the coins, that seems to address it, but it also favors the killer not the party in that scheme. It also makes a HUGE difference if the party is not all from the same guild.

If the system is adjusted so that everyone that is in party and in the quest get reknown when those mobs are killed, then things are fine. It should not matter who gets the kill shot. This is kinda like making the Kill Count = Reknown potential (with a twist). Gotta fix this one guys.

[Sarr]

Not sure what you mean. That when a hireling kills a monster, noone in the party gets renown? Or that when a monster is killed, everyone gets renown, except the hireling?

If it's the former, it's a bug. But, it could also simply be bad luck and you wouldn't have got renown from that monster anyway.

If it's the latter, why should having a hireling give your guild renown. They have their own guilds they're earning renown for.

I mean that when summoned monster (for example Bezekira, Pale Master's skeletons, [iron] defender) kills a monster, no Renown is given to any player. Also, when hirelings kill a monster, no Renown is given to anyone either.

That's my impression, though I'll surely test it more if time allows me today.

Why I think they should give Renown:
1. In DDO kills are "assigned" to the player or any other creature (summon, hireling, pet) for the last blow. It doesn't matter that you did the most damage - if hireling or a pet has this last blow which kills monster, he gets the kill. That simple system is not very logical and results in no Renown. Most other MMOs assign kills to the one who did the most damage, and I think LotrO is one of many examples.

2. To summon a monster you need to spend your mana. So that's your action and I think it should be rewarded with Renown just like damaging spells. They are in fact spells doing damage, they just don't do it directly. Summoned monsters, like Pale Master skeletons and other, didn't give me any Renown for their "last blows" ever. But I do 90% of damage to those monsters, and summons are also my spells / abilities, so I'd like to receive Renown.
This is important especially now, when we got a new Feat granting some buff to summoned creatures.

Besides I had the impression that Renown was personal in our groups, not given to any other party member. Though I may be wrong here, I'll try to do some specific tests with our guildies today.

EDIT:

I think what Sarr was seeing was much like how the Ice Coins would drop from Fire Mobs. ONLY the character closest to the mob when it died would get a coin.

So it seemed to him that only one character (the one closest) was getting reknown when a mob death resulted in Reknown, not the entire party (as was inferred in the write up and as it would happen if everyone snagged the collectible bags that used to drop).

Since most testing on Lam is probably solo, this kind of thing would be hard to notice. IF you were using hirelings or mobs, you would never know you just missed out on getting reknown and the killing mob has no use for the Reknown.

They might have done this to prevent what had seemed to be happening where everyone in the PARTY was getting reknown, even if they were in another quest somewhere. It would be possible in theory to have 6 players in 6 different quests or instances of a quest all running the same quest and farming reknown for themselves and each other. At some point more players in the same quest is overkill and a waste of time and resources. Think having six high level casters, each in their own version of Irestone, Kobold Assualt or Tears and blasting thru those quests.

So they need to have a "in quest" check for getting reknown for that quest I would guess. By using the promixity limits like the coins, that seems to address it, but it also favors the killer not the party in that scheme. It also makes a HUGE difference if the party is not all from the same guild.

If the system is adjusted so that everyone that is in party and in the quest get reknown when those mobs are killed, then things are fine. It should not matter who gets the kill shot. This is kinda like making the Kill Count = Reknown potential (with a twist). Gotta fix this one guys.

VERY good post. Thanks, we'll try to test it today and then I'll write how it went.

[Coldin]

Well, just saying from my own light testing, when I was running a quest with someone else, we were both receiving renown for kills. You know you got renown when the guild message pops up saying "Your guild as earned X renown."

You only see that for renown you earn, so you won't get a message about how the other 5 people in the party also earned that renown. But, the guild is still getting renown for each person in the party when that monster was killed.

The problem with knowing whether a hireling/summon kill isn't ever giving renown is that renown is a random thing. Unless you let the hireling kill everything in a quest of a decent size, there's no way for us as players to know if it was simply bad luck.

[Sarr]

Well, just saying from my own light testing, when I was running a quest with someone else, we were both receiving renown for kills. You know you got renown when the guild message pops up saying "Your guild as earned X renown."

You only see that for renown you earn, so you won't get a message about how the other 5 people in the party also earned that renown. But, the guild is still getting renown for each person in the party when that monster was killed.

The problem with knowing whether a hireling/summon kill isn't ever giving renown is that renown is a random thing. Unless you let the hireling kill everything in a quest of a decent size, there's no way for us as players to know if it was simply bad luck.

I understand and that's why we'll do some more tests.

But really, when I was in new Update 6 content with a hireling and 2 summons (Bezekira and that "Arcane Skeleton" tier 2, forgot its name), I could stand and wait till they'll kill all monsters and no Renown was given.
Then when I started to kill monsters myself, Renown was frequent (5 points each time).

We'll check. Maybe that was only an impression, but I'm not alone with it, so why not double-check.

[Zenako]

Well, just saying from my own light testing, when I was running a quest with someone else, we were both receiving renown for kills. You know you got renown when the guild message pops up saying "Your guild as earned X renown."

You only see that for renown you earn, so you won't get a message about how the other 5 people in the party also earned that renown. But, the guild is still getting renown for each person in the party when that monster was killed.

The problem with knowing whether a hireling/summon kill isn't ever giving renown is that renown is a random thing. Unless you let the hireling kill everything in a quest of a decent size, there's no way for us as players to know if it was simply bad luck.

Ah, but the notice you were seeing was that the GUILD just earned Reknown was it not, so if you are all in the same guild, everyone would see the message, even if it was only going to the closest one. UNLESS you had the guild page open and were looking at reknown when it happened you would be hard pressed to know if that 50 Reknown only happened once or 6 times (for 300 Reknown assuming a full party of players). Since players do not get personal reknown totals, it would be very hard to know. The way to test that would be to have everyone in quest be in a different guild or to be watching the totals and know that no else in guild was being active.

I duo box a lot and I know that the way the coins worked was only one per mob and then only to the closest person. Most of my testing to date on this mod has been solo, so until I get another chance to drop back in with both accounts I can't talk first hand on the latest build and how it working.

[Althotas]

Looks like they did an update to renown today

(Guild): Your guild has earned 100 renown. (50 base + 50 small guild bonus!)
(Guild): Your guild has earned 30 renown. (15 base + 15 small guild bonus!)
(Guild): Your guild has earned 10 renown. (5 base + 5 small guild bonus!)

Nice, I have seen a few of heroic valor drops in the chests, Ran the spies quest in House D and found a heroic valor reward in 3 of the chests. Have seen zero renown drops in the sacks tho so far today and no end rewards as of yet. But the bonus is an interesting addition.

[kailiea]

They also changed it so that the renown is only dropped for one person at a time randomly from kills. Groups in the same instance no longer share the renowned and the amount of renowned dropping even for epic completions is laughable.

The group no longer shares in the renown under the new update. Also the amount of renowned was lowered and we pulled a total of 50+ (50 small guild bonus) renowned for an epic quest between the members of our group.

This new grind is not fun.

[Althotas]

They also changed it so that the renown is only dropped for one person at a time randomly from kills. Groups in the same instance no longer share the renowned and the amount of renowned dropping even for epic completions is laughable.

The group no longer shares in the renown under the new update. Also the amount of renowned was lowered and we pulled a total of 50+ (50 small guild bonus) renowned for an epic quest between the members of our group.

This new grind is not fun.

Interesting. I ran 'Spies in the House' in house D on normal and pulled about 370 renown from the three heroic deeds drops a 30 (15+15) random kill and the rest were 10 (5+5) random kills. I am guessing it still needs a little more tweaking .
Just finished running Gwylans on normal. Received 5 chest rewards (Heroic deeds) for 500 renown plus received 70 renown for random kills (5+5),plus a heroic deed as an end reward. Total 670 renown. This was using a level 17 rogue. So if Epic is only dropping 50 renown total then something must be seriously amiss. Or else lots of bad luck.

[MrkGrismer]

Looks like they did an update to renown today

(Guild): Your guild has earned 100 renown. (50 base + 50 small guild bonus!)
(Guild): Your guild has earned 30 renown. (15 base + 15 small guild bonus!)
(Guild): Your guild has earned 10 renown. (5 base + 5 small guild bonus!)

Nice, I have seen a few of heroic valor drops in the chests, Ran the spies quest in House D and found a heroic valor reward in 3 of the chests. Have seen zero renown drops in the sacks tho so far today and no end rewards as of yet. But the bonus is an interesting addition.

I wonder where the 'small guild' cutoff is.

[etla]

I wonder where the 'small guild' cutoff is.

It would be ideal if it tapered off. IE: If you have only one account in your guild then you have a 100% chance of getting the small guild bonus. Every additional account reduces the chance by 1%

[Althotas]

I wonder where the 'small guild' cutoff is.

Well Coldlin had a post up elsewhere and he got the same small guild bonus as a member of DDO Daily. I suspect that either a medium guild is huge and a large guild is all of DDO or something isn't working as intended.

[Coldin]

Well, just ran Mired in Kobolds elite with a level 20 monk.

Picked up several 5 renowns, and one 15 renown from monsters. End chest end one 150 renown for me, and the end reward had 50 renown.

Couple all that with the small guild bonus that I seem to be getting, and I picked up about 450 renown.

First impression is that it's much improved over the last pass. I'm curious how a raid or epic quest will go.

[Althotas]

Just finished Tear of Dhakan on normal with the level 17 rogue and got 13 of the 10 renown (5+5), One heroic deeds in a chest 100 (50+50) and the end reward was a tales of Valor for 300 (150+150) for a total of 590 renown.

That makes a total of 1830 renown gotten today in about 3 hours (3 quests and a slayer run thru the desert which produce only 14 random kills).

[iamsamoth0]

I wonder where the 'small guild' cutoff is.

I have to preface by mentioning I have not seen the content running(as some may have gathered).
I am thrilled to see the new development. I plead with the Dev's to re-evaluate the implementation of the new features. I mistakenly read into the descriptions listed at the wiki site(props to Borro) and otherwise. My hopes had been that these things would be pretty widely available and simple enough to manage. I was wrong in that assumption and see now that there is little, if any, hope for me to enjoy the luxury of the work if the material is continued in it's current form. While I appreciate that there will be new area(s) to explore and modules to experience. Other than begging a guild to take me in simply to witness the additions(Airships) is under considered.
I want to make an argument for the fact that while this is a socially biased game. There are situations were two or more people could not be had, and the framework of D & D took this into account. If there are any alternatives, or suggestions you would consider to allow the ownership of a Guild Airship be more widely attainable. I am sure there is a middle ground in serving the desires of those who are at the top and desire the chase of the end-game. My wish is to be able to enjoy the game in a completely different fashion. I feel it is not to much to ask for more fleshing out of the rewards and requirements of having and maintaining a Guild.

[Althotas]

I have to preface by mentioning I have not seen the content running(as some may have gathered).
I am thrilled to see the new development. I plead with the Dev's to re-evaluate the implementation of the new features. I mistakenly read into the descriptions listed at the wiki site(props to Borro) and otherwise. My hopes had been that these things would be pretty widely available and simple enough to manage. I was wrong in that assumption and see now that there is little, if any, hope for me to enjoy the luxury of the work if the material is continued in it's current form. While I appreciate that there will be new area(s) to explore and modules to experience. Other than begging a guild to take me in simply to witness the additions(Airships) is under considered.
I want to make an argument for the fact that while this is a socially biased game. There are situations were two or more people could not be had, and the framework of D & D took this into account. If there are any alternatives, or suggestions you would consider to allow the ownership of a Guild Airship be more widely attainable. I am sure there is a middle ground in serving the desires of those who are at the top and desire the chase of the end-game. My wish is to be able to enjoy the game in a completely different fashion. I feel it is not to much to ask for more fleshing out of the rewards and requirements of having and maintaining a Guild.

Uh, You can make your own one man guild. I did on Lama to try this stuff out. Yea you won't get an airship as fast as a larger guild but you can still get one while running the content. My one man guild is about to get to level 5 and I haven't really been grinding very hard but just checking stuff out. I suspect under this new renown set up I could get an airship in a week or 2 if I really busted my tail and went grinding non-stop in the quests giving the most renown per hour.

[Coldin]

Just did a tour of the Vale as a level 20 monk. Out of 8 chests, 2 dropped 50 renown. I picked up a bunch of the 5 renowns from various monsters.

So far, the changes seem to be a good improvement over the old system. I like the small guild bonus too.