Feedback: Guild Leveling

[dragonofsteel]

Thanks for much for the feedback.

You're seeing smaller renown from mobs because we increased the rate of drops (now that you don't have to manually pick them up) and changed the range from 5-100.

As Deathseeker just commented, we wanted to ensure that contributions from low level guild member were still desirable. There is a bias towards higher level adventures, but it's not night and day.

The length of dungeons does matter - especially for a chance of a renown offering in the quest reward. These start at 50% for a short dungeon and go up from there. So it looks like Tendare was pretty unlucky.

In theory. :-)

Yes I see you increase the drop rate I made 100 renown for new evasion hard, this time I made 55 renown. Sweet that was really lot better, I guess might need to test more. THOUGH FREAKING LVL 20 QUEST SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY CHANCE TO DROP THE SAME RENOWN AS LEVEL 2 QUEST OR LOWER FOR THAT FACT. (I DONT CARE IF DO IT WITH THE PROPER LEVEL TOON.)

[MadFloyd]

Just ran Acid Wit on normal with a level 20 Monk.

I picked up 85 renown from all the various trogs and acid elementals. But no renown from chests or the end reward.

Am I just getting unlucky with the chests and end rewards?

Aaaarrrgh. I think we're all unlucky at this point. I believe there's a serious bug where renown is not appearing in chests or end rewards.

Considering that these are the two most important places to get 'serious' renown, the system is pretty much dead in the water for the weekend.

Thanks to all who helped shed light on this and my apologies for the frustration.

[Kintro]

Aaaarrrgh. I think we're all unlucky at this point. I believe there's a serious bug where renown is not appearing in chests or end rewards.

Considering that these are the two most important places to get 'serious' renown, the system is pretty much dead in the water for the weekend.

Thanks to all who helped shed light on this and my apologies for the frustration.

Would we have to choose between our end reward and guild renown or would renown be granted like the Bowl of Blood at the end of OOB?

The former would give a huge advantage to players who've been here longer and feels too much like buying guild levels. In my opinion renown should be about the things you achieve not the number of end rewards you were willing to sacrifice.

Same for chests really, if you either get renown or loot then the system is getting in the way of playing the game, especially for newer players who really need everything they pull.

[Coldin]

Would we have to choose between our end reward and guild renown or would renown be granted like the Bowl of Blood at the end of OOB?

The former would give a huge advantage to players who've been here longer and feels too much like buying guild levels. In my opinion renown should be about the things you achieve not the number of end rewards you were willing to sacrifice.

Same for chests really, if you either get renown or loot then the system is getting in the way of playing the game, especially for newer players who really need everything they pull.

Well, if it helps any, the single time I did see renown drop from a chest (this was last week), it looked like it was in addition to all the other loot I received.

Thanks for reporting Madfloyd. I hope you find the bug.

[Sarr]

Would we have to choose between our end reward and guild renown or would renown be granted like the Bowl of Blood at the end of OOB?

The former would give a huge advantage to players who've been here longer and feels too much like buying guild levels. In my opinion renown should be about the things you achieve not the number of end rewards you were willing to sacrifice.

Same for chests really, if you either get renown or loot then the system is getting in the way of playing the game, especially for newer players who really need everything they pull.

I agree, but in chests it's just like other loot - take it and you get it. But in end rewards, yes, I think you must sacrifice other reward in order to take Renown.

MadFloyd: I know it's pain in the b(u/a)ck to change everything over and over, but I support Kintro there - end rewards matter more to newcomers, which will make them get less renown. Vets will level up their guilds quicker, as they won't need most of the end quest rewards and will take Renown instead.

[Xionanx]

Once again I'll bring up what I posted several pages back.

Renown should be tied to overall character XP, a Favor'esq system, and an Achievement System.

Why? Because "Small" guilds where the members have 5+ alts each would be able to get access to a decent airship by continuing to do what they do. Play the game normally.

Why? Because people who TR would be major contributors to overall renown, AS THEY SHOULD BE since have multiple past lives IS an accomplishment.

Why? Because this game needs an achievement system to reward those who go off the beaten path and do strange things. Killed 100 dragons in your lifetime? Achievement = Renown. Soloed SoS? Achievement = Renown. So on and so forth.

Having renown tied to Drops, Loot, or end Rewards adds a random factor that frankly punishes the unlucky, the new player, and the small guilds who aren't willing to "farm". As has been pointed out before all that will happen is instead of me looking for Tomes and Major SP Pots in the 500+ quest rewards I'll have to grind through from 12 to 20 on my TR, I'll just add in "Renown" to the list.

I feel sorry for small new guilds where the players actually need to "PLAT" from selling the trash to cover the ever increasing prices of items.

[altagar]

While I've just been at the renown collection, I'm really discouraged that all guilds start with zero. So I got to thinking what would be a good initial number for a guild.

My reasoning using a sports team analogy:

The (your favorite sports team) is really great (i.e. has renown). However, they just [pick one -added/lost] (your favorite player) so they are [better/worse]...


How would it work:

My thought is the sum of the favor of all toons in the guild. [You might have a multiplier after looking at real data.] Yes, this rewards larger guilds, but it also lets people start having fun with guilds sooner, even if they are in a smaller guild.

It can't be just one way though, when toons come out, the favor comes out, otherwise add/drops create value.

I don't have any real data, but if you assume 100 characters with say on average 1000 favor, that gets you to level 27!!

Any thoughts?

[Alanim]

To point out, currently there is a bug with the guild leveling, that anyone in the party, in a instance or not, gains renown, which at the moment kind of supports a party running 4 different instances. I'd just like to let you devs know :P

[Coldin]

To point out, currently there is a bug with the guild leveling, that anyone in the party, in a instance or not, gains renown, which at the moment kind of supports a party running 4 different instances. I'd just like to let you devs know :P

Really? That's a strange bug. It must not be checking people in the instance, but people in the party.

There's a small chance that could be WAI, but I rather doubt it.

[MadFloyd]

To point out, currently there is a bug with the guild leveling, that anyone in the party, in a instance or not, gains renown, which at the moment kind of supports a party running 4 different instances. I'd just like to let you devs know :P

Renown from what - mob drops?

[Coldin]

Renown from what - mob drops?

*cough* Well, considering we aren't really seeing renown drop from chests and end rewards...*cough*

[MadFloyd]

*cough* Well, considering we aren't really seeing renown drop from chests and end rewards...*cough*

LOL, yeah I guess that should have been obvious, but the version I'm playing is dropping in chests and end rewards just fine. :-)

Thx.

[Coldin]

LOL, yeah I guess that should have been obvious, but the version I'm playing is dropping in chests and end rewards just fine. :-)

Thx.

Oh neat. I wonder when we'll get that build.

[Alanim]

yeah, monster drops... I'm glad you guys have fixed the rates in the next update, as I decided to run "sins of attrition" and never saw any renown from chests or the end reward(this was only a level 19 ranger)

[Kraki]

LOL, yeah I guess that should have been obvious, but the version I'm playing is dropping in chests and end rewards just fine. :-)

Thx.

Thanks a lot, why don't you give us a nice papercut and pour lemon juice all over it?

[altagar]

LOL, yeah I guess that should have been obvious, but the version I'm playing is dropping in chests and end rewards just fine. :-)

Thx.

No fair MadFloyd... We all want what you've got, the next version.

[Saaluta]

Thanks a lot, why don't you give us a nice papercut and pour lemon juice all over it?

Personally, I'd prefer a nice MLT..That's mutton, lettuce and tomato

Saal

[etla]

I'd just like to say I think the current guild levelling concept looks great. While there is undoubtedly some balance tweaking to be done and, of course, some bugs; the random nature of rewards, decay and acceleration there of; and the attempted balancing between large and small guilds all sound great.

Some have called for renown to be either static or deterministic (in some cases even being in lock step with XP or Favour). My though is we already have score keeping on those metrics so renown should be something different; why track those counters in two different places.

The advantages of even a basic airship are going to make even the smallest groups want to guild up. Even a person who wants to completely solo can eventually get an airship so those basic rewards aren't out of the reach of anyone. Guild charters are only 250 points, a dedicated F2P player could even get set up without spending any money. However I can't see the rewards of even a full stocked 100 level ship being enough to make players who like small guilds jump ship to a MegaGuild. Even if they did there is nothing saying all your characters need to belong to one guild and MegaGuilds aren't going to notice if you are moonlighting. I will predict the existence of successful "Newbie" guilds who will do nothing but give starting players guild membership and act as a breeding ground for splinter guilds.

Some have questioned the need for decay or feel that it will penalize guilds who have members that only play once every six months/year/two years. If you think of renown being an award for activity then it follows that both of those are required by design. A 100 player guild with only two active members (to take an extreme case) should see their renown drop. Some one said that the current system will penalize new players (because they won't be able to level up as fast); a guild system with out a balanced decay system penalizes new guilds. Like incumbents in american politics LVL 100 MegaGuilds would be basically impossible to displace.

As the leader of a 9 account/70ish character guild I sure hope the balancing for smallish guild works. I have no delusions that we'll ever reach 80 let alone 100 guild levels; we don't have anywhere near that kind of activity (except for maybe one member). Nor do I think it should be expected for my guild to reach those levels. This isn't kindergarten, every guild isn't a special snowflake, there should be ranks of ability. If all guild level 100 required was concerted grinding then I think it would be a loss compared to what is in place now.

Finally I sure hope guilds won't be able to buy renown though I imagine renown boosts will be available in the store either when U5 goes live or shortly there after. (on checking, hey what do you know they are there already on lamannia).

[Sarr]

Well, after a looong discussion on www.ddopl.com, we've got some feedback:

We'd prefer the first system of Renown dropping from Mobs. The one using collectibles.
Why?

1. In current system, only 1 person gets Renown (that's how it worked to me). The one who killed the mob. So imagine if you're playing a cleric and would love to able to get Renown as much as DPSes do. No chance. DPS and / or mindlessness is in favor here.

2. Collectibles drop when a monster is killed. No matter if it's killed by our hireling, our summon, our skeleton or anything - we'll get Renown from collectibles. But now, when our hireling or our summon kills some monster, we don't get ANY Renown from that kill, because only direct kills by a player character give him Renown.
So, when you're playing a character using summoned monsters, hirelings from DDO Store and from contracts, or use traps, etc, you wont get near as much Renown as will get every "one man army = DPS".

That's not fair and not fun. For example, it also makes me as a Pale Master with new "Augment Summoning" feat not very useful when it comes to Renown. But most importantly, it doesn't feel good. I'd like to take collectibles instead, if you can't make every hireling and every summon count as *my* kill. That's how it should be from the start, I guess, but it's not like that and I guess development would have a hard time changing it. I mean - if my summons and my hirelings would count a kill to my account, there wouldn't be such problem, I think. But now it's not working that way, and we get a lot of "Misadventure" kills and "by hireling" kills. What for, I don't really know. They're all there thanks to me.

Conclusion:
Collectibles system isn't good because not every monster drops collectibles. But *we* see Renown from Monsters perfectly fair to be optional, so if you're too lazy to pick up collectibles and manage your backpack, you won't get it. That's fair.
But then collectibles should drop from *all* monsters, just at a much lower rate than it happens now. Plus it would be needed to lower collectibles drops in quests with lots of monsters in a short time, like Kobold Assault. That's how you could make farming Renown not very likely.

So collectibles with Renown aren't a perfect system, but still much more fair than current implementation, where DPS's are the ones to be most valuable for a guild (further lowering the number of always too rare Clerics). Also, characters using summoned monsters and hirelings (soloers) will be even less needed and respected than they are on live servers. They just won't be as useful for a guild, won't have that fun of getting Renown from monsters (direct and very rewarding) like others, and well... It doesn't feel good or fair to be less likely to receive Renown from monsters.

[altagar]

Sarr,

Have that maybe how it is working, but that is not what is written in the current version of the release notes under Guilds & Airships:

LAMANNIA ONLY - Guild trophies that are dropped by monsters are now automatically applied to everyone in the dungeon when the monster is defeated. No longer rooting through collectable bags! Drop rates have been increased and values adjusted. All monsters now have a chance of granting guild renown, not just those that possess collectables.


Have you submitted a bug report?