Shintao Monk

[Aerendil]

^^ Yep, an improvement with the smite evil line would definitely be nice. As A_D mentioned, the light side definitely needs some form of ability to mirror the dark side's ToD.
Rise of the Phoenix doesn't even come close to being an equal to ToD. Especially given the fact that it's a readily available spell to 2 classes, and available to everyone in game via certain items (ring of the ancestors, cakes, etc.).

On a side note re: Monks, how have the new void strikes panned out? what is the damage on them, and is there a void X 3 finisher?
Has anyone tested out the void-dark-void charm, or the void-light-void buff?

Curious about those.

Also, has the dps loss been noticeable with 80% offhand attacks? Has lag been reduced at all?
Is doublestrike noticeable?

[vmsbass]

Shintao II (and III) really needs Smite Evil to continue improving like it does for Paladins. The devs should remember that giving Paladins Exalted Smite was crucial to making those players feel like Smite Evil was worthwhile.

Shintao Smite Evil II should have +1 crit multiplier, +1 critical threat, and 25 second cooldown (5 less). The Ki cost should only increase by 0-1.
Shintao Smite Evil III would bring it to a total of +2 multiplier, threat, and 20 second cooldown.

That means the unarmed smite is like a 17-20/x4 weapon. That brings the extra damage from Smite Evil to a 75% chance of +67, a 10% chance of +418, and a 10% chance of +367 (assuming regular hit is 50). That's an average total of +128 damage, or 25% of what dark monks have been doing with TOD since level 9. If the devs feel an x4 attack with +67 damage is too good at killing a stunned monster, they could instead swap the +multiplier for more +threat, making it a 12-20/x2 attack instead.


PS. In addition, Shintao monks should get +1 use of Paladin Smite Evil, and stack Monk+Paladin levels for the purpose of Smite Evil damage from either class. They should probably also get an AC aura like paladins, but weaker.

Good suggestions, but I think the priority still should be ensuring that the Smite attack no longer eliminates the off hand attack, and that the extra damage is applied to this off hand attack they way it is for all other two weapon fighters. This of course only applies to those monks that use handwraps; which is massive majority I believe.

[Brother_Solar]

On a side note re: Monks, how have the new void strikes panned out? what is the damage on them, and is there a void X 3 finisher?
Has anyone tested out the void-dark-void charm, or the void-light-void buff?

Curious about those.

For the answer to some of these, you could check the other thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252314

I split out the info so that we could discuss (i.e., QQ about) Shintao by itself.
There is no Void:Void:Void finisher currently.

[Brother_Solar]

Nevermind, further testing shows that I was not observant enough with my initial testing. Using the Shintao Monk Smite does indeed eliminate your offhand attack proc chance.

[Coldin]

Smite was working on unarmed off-hand procs the same way that the elemental strikes do. There was only an 80% chance that it would work (GTWF), but I definitely saw some double 200+ hits against stunned critters.

But unfortunately, unarmed smites don't seem to trigger the off-hand attack.

[rimble]

Certainly agree that if Shintao III which was confirmed to have Silver DR bypass was included things will be different for the Shintao PrE line.

Eh...I guess, it just simplifies equipment temporarily, it's just a temporary crutch. Having automatic Silver instead of requiring Metalline is just +2d6 damage--ideally, you have Holy in place of Metalline now. Ninja Spy III is, most likely, a total of 4d6 or 5d6 when Sneak Attacking, I'd rather have that.

[Deamus]

it all comes to this as you all said but i want to repeat that maybe a dev will give the appropriate attention.

Dark Ninja Monk OVERPOWERED> Light Shintao Monk ULTIMATE GIMP

sry for the caps.

[cforce]

But unfortunately, unarmed smites don't seem to trigger the off-hand attack.

Disappointing. This makes this "bonus" ability basically:

"Pay 15 ki: reduce the amount of damage on your next attack by suppressing your offhand hook."

Whereas the unarmed/Pally Smite bug could arguably be "working as intended", having the Shintao PrE ability not work with unarmed (or, more precisely, be a *net penalty* when used) is clearly a bug.

[J1NG]

Eh...I guess, it just simplifies equipment temporarily, it's just a temporary crutch. Having automatic Silver instead of requiring Metalline is just +2d6 damage--ideally, you have Holy in place of Metalline now. Ninja Spy III is, most likely, a total of 4d6 or 5d6 when Sneak Attacking, I'd rather have that.

Well, if you have Silver, it opens up the possibility of:

Holy (Burst) of Greater Evil Outsider Bane
Anarchic (Burst) of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane
Axiomatic (Burst) of Greater Chaotic Outsider Bane
etc

All wraps which would increase your DPS straight away in fights that matter, and would certainly make the (Shintao PrE) Monk viable in Elite and Epic. Right now? Light Monks loose out too much too quickly without heavy trading, time and effort invested into getting ToD Ring and appropriate HW gear.

Damage may be poor compared when both Ninja Spy and Shintao can bypass DR, but being able to punch through DR means monks get the full 2d10 unarmed (vs 1d8 or whatever shortsword weapons are) +str +other mod damage on their attacks at the fastest rate, means that the unarmed Light Monk is far from being unable to pull their own weight in latter quests.

J1NG

[Vhlad]

Why Shintao disappoints me from a development standpoint:

• The ML of metalline on handwraps is artificially inflated. Example
• There's no greensteel handwraps, i.e. no min II handwraps.
• There's no epic handwraps in the game, and no prospect of future crafted epic greensteel wraps from epic shroud.

It's disappointing to see devs design a PrE for monks that is entirely focused around forcing them to pay extra for something that other classes get on their weapons more easily, for cheaper.

Why Shintao disappoints me from an implementation standpoint:

It's too weak for a cost of 21 AP and 3 feats. Shintao smite is terrible, so we're really paying for cold iron + byeshk (which, again, other classes get on their weapons more easily, for cheaper).

This is why shintao smite is terrible:

It costs 15 ki and the act of using a shintao smite replaces the act of using an elemental strike.

15 ki is the equivalent cost of 1 earth IV strike and 1 earth III strike.
Earth IV strike: 16 + 2d10 on crit = 16 + 11*2/20 = 17.1
Earth III stirke: 12 + 2d6 on crit = 12 + 7*2/20 = 12.7

An elemental strike has a 100% chance of procing once, a 80% chance of procing twice, and a 8% chance of procing three times.

Therefore, we have: 17.1 + 0.8*17.1 + 0.08*17.1 = 32.148
12.7 + 0.8*12.7 + 0.08*12.7 = 23.876

A shintao smite does 3*level + 7 damage, and has a 10% chance of critting unarmed for x2 damage: 0.9*67 + 0.1*67*2 = 73.7

Summary
Total damage from elemental strikes for 15 ki = 56.024
Total damage from shintao smite for 15 ki = 73.7

Shintao smite yields an increase of 17.676 damage every 30 seconds, i.e. +0.5892 DPS

Shintao II compared to other PrE's:
Just to compare, at 237 unarmed swings per minute (using updated 80% off hand numbers):
Frenzy I: +32 DPS [2d6 +1.1 = 8.1, 8.1*237/60 = 31.995]. In other words, frenzy I adds 5430% more DPS than shintao II.
Tempest I (even after the nerf) adds more.
KotC I: +13.825 DPS, KotC II: +27.65 DPS
Kensai II: +29.23 DPS [+4 power surge & +2 weapon = 0.9*6 + 0.1*6*2, +4 seeker = 0.1*4*2. Total = 7.4, 7.4*237/60 = 29.23].
Assassin II: +27.65 DPS

This comparison shows that shintao II is pitiful.

But unfortunately, unarmed smites don't seem to trigger the off-hand attack.

Add the fact that it's currently bugged and the unarmed smite REMOVES your off-hand attack, and instead of gaining 0.5892 DPS you're losing DPS. All for the cost of 3 feats and 21 AP? Ha.

If shintao smite was fixed such that it provided a chance to double strike and off-hand proc, and did not negate your off-hand attack, it would still be too weak.

If shintao smite behaved like elemental strikes for unarmed monk attacks, we would have:
73.7 + 0.8*73.7 + 0.08*73.7 = 138.556

Total damage from elemental strikes for 15 ki = 56.024
Total damage from shintao smite for 15 ki if it could double strike and off hand proc = 138.556

Gain = 82.532 damage every 30 seconds = +2.75 DPS

Finally, if shintao smite could triple strike and had ZERO ki cost, it would still be too weak!

Gain = 138.556 damage every 30 seconds = +4.62 DPS
Even under this fairy tale scenario:
Frenzy I provides 693% more DPS
Tempest I provides even more
KotC II provides 598% more DPS
Kensai II provides 633% more DPS
Assassin II provides 598% more DPS

Conclusion

Shintao I & II need a complete overhaul.
It's a PrE focused on having monks pay extra for something that other classes get on their weapons more easily, for cheaper.
The DPS boost is vastly inferior to PrEs for barbarians, fighters, rangers, paladins, and rogues
There is no added utility. Protection from evil +2 deflection and +2 resistance is both weak and easily obtained from other sources. Dismissing strike works in very few places and adds very little since monks already have stunning fist, shining star, and quivering palm.

PrE comparison, using unarmed TWF attack and crit rates:

KotC II:
0 feats, 16 AP
+27.65 DPS

Assassin II:
0 feats, 28 AP (12 AP spent in sneak attack accuracy III and traning III, which all rogues take anyway)
+27.65 DPS

Kensai II:
2 feats (that every fighter takes anyway), 14 AP
+29.23 DPS

Frenzy I:
2 feats, 9 AP
+32 DPS

Tempest II:
5 feats, 12 AP
+20% to off-hand DPS. This is still the highest DPS increase in the list.

Shintao II:
3 feats (included Harmonious Balance feat), 21 AP
+0.5892 DPS
or +2.75 DPS if shintao smite can double strike and off-hand proc

[Halock]

Way to expensive a Pre in both feat + AP cost for what you get.

I made a comment about it a while back saying i would treat it like i do Pale master on my wizard , i hope the devs do as well ( ie, release it, see it sucks, then buff it hopefully to a useable level )

Edit: unarmed smite not double striking is a bug, as yesterday before i picked up ITWF i would get the double smites, today i do not, i also do not get double FOL, i'll have to check if i get any double strikes come to think of it.

[Jamma]

The pre is too weak and expensive. I doesn't make sense to be a light monk anymore imo .
Shintao I smite evil counter is too big , if it was 15 it would make sense.
Shintao II is weaker that shintao I . Consider how many mobs can you banish in the game atm .
Not savarath, Not Epic then only vale ?
Seriously can someone tell me is there any reason anymore to go light except ToD raid and solo ?
Devs must rethink this .......

Well, the same reasons there are light path monks now (like me). Because its more fun for me than just focusing on a TOD. Contrary to the vast quantity of posts in the forums, gameplay is about more than just DPS. My light path monk is more versatile than a dark path monk. For me, DPS is fun. Doing nothing BUT DPS is rather boring. Hence light path!

All that said, yes, Shintao Monk is a steaming pile o' poo, no argument there. I just won't bother with it. Doesn't make me weaker, or enjoy Eberron less. Net effect of all this pointless coding, dark path monks have more defense, in exchange for 10 AP and 1 feat. Good for them! Means I have to spend less ki healing my buds up!

[Brother_Solar]

All that said, yes, Shintao Monk is a steaming pile o' poo, no argument there. I just won't bother with it. Doesn't make me weaker, or enjoy Eberron less. Net effect of all this pointless coding, dark path monks have more defense, in exchange for 10 AP and 1 feat. Good for them! Means I have to spend less ki healing my buds up!

But don't you feel just a little... cheated?

I won't say that all of my hopes and dreams just got flushed down the toilet, but a decent sized package of them did...

[vmsbass]

I was finally able to get into Llamania and do some testing myself with the U5, and it seems that all special attacks have chance of firing multiple times, including smites. In the pic below I highlighted where my smite affected a mob twice. Keep in mind this a pally smite, not a shintao smite; but I would bet they work the same.



Btw, for those who care, pally divine sacrifice also proc'ed twice while using handwraps, which they never did before.

I would think that smites are like all other added damage like ToD, Storm Strike, etc. in that they can not only proc twice, but three times. I have not done so much testing where I saw a smite hit three times; only a Storm Strike.

[rimble]

Damage may be poor compared when both Ninja Spy and Shintao can bypass DR, but being able to punch through DR means monks get the full 2d10 unarmed (vs 1d8 or whatever shortsword weapons are) +str +other mod damage on their attacks at the fastest rate, means that the unarmed Light Monk is far from being unable to pull their own weight in latter quests.

Why would my Ninja Spy bother using short swords?

As mentioned, by using Shintao III you would conceivably have +2d6 damage from using Holy in place of Metalline.

By using Ninja Spy III you would presumably have at least 3d6, and maybe even 4d6 or 5d6, against everything, but of course only when Sneak Attacking (really, that seems to be most of the time for me). And for things that don't require Metalline, you can have the 2d6 from Holy on there too.

The handwraps you mentioned is why I said it's only temporarily useful. You go Shintao III with your Holy/Anarchic/Axiomatic of Greater Bane wraps (or junk of Pure Good, whatever you're stuck with), until you can find the Silver/Metalline equivalents. Then you go Ninja Spy and stay there.

Shintao is a band-aid until you get itemized. That's not a bad thing, but it should have more to recommend it as your permanent PrE of choice. Even something significant like +4d6 against Evil Outsiders at Tier III wouldn't attract me, that's too specific. It needs something more widely useful.

[Zarni]

I just dont understand how you can make a light path specific PrE without increasing the potency of your heals/buffs etc etc.

If you want to punch things really hard and do damage, you have the dark side... Why does the light side gain 1 useless buff and 2 useless punches? Even if Shintao 3 has Silver bypass I can't possibly see taking the entire line for it. Plus, again, where is the light side "group support" love?

I can say with complete honesty, if you want to be a light monk you're better off not taking any PrEs currently. Thats just sad as hell.

[Halock]

I just dont understand how you can make a light path specific PrE without increasing the potency of your heals/buffs etc etc.

If you want to punch things really hard and do damage, you have the dark side... Why does the light side gain 1 useless buff and 2 useless punches? Even if Shintao 3 has Silver bypass I can't possibly see taking the entire line for it. Plus, again, where is the light side "group support" love?

I can say with complete honesty, if you want to be a light monk you're better off not taking any PrEs currently. Thats just sad as hell.

Well said.

[Deamus]

I just dont understand how you can make a light path specific PrE without increasing the potency of your heals/buffs etc etc.

If you want to punch things really hard and do damage, you have the dark side... Why does the light side gain 1 useless buff and 2 useless punches? Even if Shintao 3 has Silver bypass I can't possibly see taking the entire line for it. Plus, again, where is the light side "group support" love?

I can say with complete honesty, if you want to be a light monk you're better off not taking any PrEs currently. Thats just sad as hell.

+1 rep

[Quijonsith]

I just dont understand how you can make a light path specific PrE without increasing the potency of your heals/buffs etc etc.

If you want to punch things really hard and do damage, you have the dark side... Why does the light side gain 1 useless buff and 2 useless punches? Even if Shintao 3 has Silver bypass I can't possibly see taking the entire line for it. Plus, again, where is the light side "group support" love?

I can say with complete honesty, if you want to be a light monk you're better off not taking any PrEs currently. Thats just sad as hell.

My thoughts exactly

[oweieie]

I was finally able to get into Llamania and do some testing myself with the U5, and it seems that all special attacks have chance of firing multiple times, including smites.

Yeah, and Hydro was posting Touch of Death triggering 5 times or something awesomely win like that. Don't count your smites before they patch.