Shintao Monk

[Borror0]

they didnt own up for it being over powered

Eladrin chalked up the ESoS to "momentary insanity" which, to me, read "we ****ed up."

If that is not enough then how about:

• "This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. [...] I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update." -MadFloyd
• "Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in." -MadFloyd

[Brother_Solar]

You forget moment of clarity for +5 tohit/skills.

The 10 second duration severly limits the utility. The ki cost of the finisher is also rather high at 25 ki, and that doesn't include the cost of the strikes themselves. I don't foresee this ability being used often, if at all.

The main benefit of the pfe clicky is obviously that it enables you to spam light finishers at a rapid pace.

Except that, whether bugged or intended, the Protection from Evil ki ability does not advance finishing moves on the preview server.

I would argue that shintao in it's current implementation might be too potent.
The melee potential of a shintao monk isn't all that far behind other melee. The melee potential of a twinked out shintao is immensly higher than a stand in the back walking shrine.

I have no idea what you're talking about on this one. There is nothing at all potent about the Shintao monk. You don't need to be Shintao to get the healing ki ability, and you can't cast it THAT much faster with Shintao. All finishing moves have a 6 second cooldown. Normally, you can only cast 1 Healing Ki every 9 to 10 seconds or so. With Shintao, you would theoretically be able to cast one every 6 seconds. Unfortunatly, that is not the case because the Protection from Evil ability doesn't advance finishing moves and the other "Light" strikes are on long cooldowns. You can basically wind up one very expensive Healing Ki in a few seconds once every 15 seconds.

One shintao might be a weak addition to your average pug, the stackability of free healing would make them op if they got better and they might already be.

Again, I will state that I think you are vastly overestimating the ability of the Shintao Monk to contribute to healing. They aren't much better (if at all) than your standard Fists of Light monk. Stack a party full of Path of Harmonious Balance monks, and they'd have the same effect for healing. The PrE itself does not add much value to this.

Shintao isn't useful. Healing Ki is useful. You don't need to be Shintao to use Healing Ki. Even if the Healing Ki ability is powerful, I have never seen an all-monk questing group. People don't spend the time to set those up with the intention of using monks as healers. It's not that they couldn't, but why would they? It's far easier to just get a real healer than find 6 monks willing to spend their ki healing the group.

[Drfirewater79]

Eladrin chalked up the ESoS to "momentary insanity" which, to me, read "we ****ed up."

If that is not enough then how about:

• "This is a complex game and we're well aware that despite our best intentions, there can be undesirable ramifications. [...] I can say right now that this feature will not go live in the next update." -MadFloyd
• "Admittedly, while I would have expected this type of reaction if the D&D dice were not included (at all) in the tooltips, I consider myself duly enlightened with the reaction we're witnessing even with them in." -MadFloyd

eladrins post - didnt own up to anything ... that was telling the players what they wanted to hear .... so in THIS case not valid ... didnt say we screwed up or didnt think it was gonna be that crazy ... no sorry or anything ...

macfloyd on heroic serge - again didnt own up to anything simply stated it was broken and wouldnt be making it into live in that update (update 4) it is still on lama now and they mentioned it wouldnt be in update 5 but that it hasnt been scrapped completely yet .... so THIS case is not valid.

and lastly

Macfloyd on combat dice

- The tooltip situation cannot be changed for Update 5, but this doesn't mean that it won't get changed for a future update.

this doesnt prove anything in fact if you go back one more post by macfloyd you would see him defending it tooth and nail saying that while the players that have dnd experience might not understand it players without dnd experience are getting confused and so the 1-6 main category will stay ...

he only agree'd to POSSIBLY CHANGE IT IN THE FUTURE when people brought up the fact that 1-6 doesnt give the same averages as 1d6 and thus is a false statement when defining averages.

so this statement is invalid .. .however i will give you a half point for macfloyd stating that he didnt realize that the averages would be so far off ... or that some of the numbers where actually in the description wrong but typo's i dont really consider an issue worthy of admitance ... since even newspapers make typo's daily and they are paid to print the eng. language daily .

[mboger]

macfloyd

Am I the only one with mental images of Biff from Back To The Future thumping the devs in the head and saying "Heeeelloooo, Macfloyd?"

(It's MadFloyd.)

But seriously, guys, knock it off. Remember, devs mark threads with pointless bickering as garbage and ignore them.

...Apparently, they do the same to threads with Shintao PrE content.

[Drfirewater79]

Am I the only one with mental images of Biff from Back To The Future thumping the devs in the head and saying "Heeeelloooo, Macfloyd?"

(It's MadFloyd.)

But seriously, guys, knock it off. Remember, devs mark threads with pointless bickering as garbage and ignore them.

...Apparently, they do the same to threads with Shintao PrE content.

lol my bad about the mac/mad thingy lol

sometimes i feel like biff ... lol

your right though its completely off topic so last you will hear of it from me

honestly though they are never gonna reply to a monk thread before update 5 goes live anyway they are still to busy dealing with the mass of people leaving the game over the combat changes ... fixing monk is last thing on there priorities list ... even though i feel it should be high on there list.

as well you do i am sure

[NXPlasmid]

I would really like to hear something from the developers on the subject of the Shintao Monk.

Player/tester input has basically been: "The Shintao Monk PrE is currently not worth what it costs to take it. In fact, you'd have to pay me to take it."

Even so, they haven't given so much as a "Ok, we hear you, we'll think about it."

I gotta say that the most annoying thing about this is the 100% silence from the devs. I'd even feel better if one of them popped in and said we are leaving it the way it is so tough. A response of any type would be appreciated though.

Am I the only one with mental images of Biff from Back To The Future thumping the devs in the head and saying "Heeeelloooo, Macfloyd?"

(It's MadFloyd.)

But seriously, guys, knock it off. Remember, devs mark threads with pointless bickering as garbage and ignore them.

...Apparently, they do the same to threads with Shintao PrE content.

The release date is in 2 weeks, the problems with the Shintao PrEs are balancing issues, so no matter what gets changed there are going to be complaints and if and when it gets changed they are going to want to be sure it is right.
The very best response you could expect is one of the devs commenting that they are aware and will try to do something in a future update, but a coment like that isn't going to go over very well.. so it's a no win situation for the devs. The fact is, that as sucky as the Shintao PrE's they aren't breaking anyone's build. My guess is that all the devs that would be doing anything with PrEs have their hands full with the roll out of the new combat system and for my subsciption money, I would rather have all devs on deck making sure that doesn't need a last minute fix than worrying about the Shintao PrE.

[Drfirewater79]

The release date is in 2 weeks, the problems with the Shintao PrEs are balancing issues, so no matter what gets changed there are going to be complaints and if and when it gets changed they are going to want to be sure it is right.
The very best response you could expect is one of the devs commenting that they are aware and will try to do something in a future update, but a coment like that isn't going to go over very well.. so it's a no win situation for the devs. The fact is, that as sucky as the Shintao PrE's they aren't breaking anyone's build. My guess is that all the devs that would be doing anything with PrEs have their hands full with the roll out of the new combat system and for my subsciption money, I would rather have all devs on deck making sure that doesn't need a last minute fix than worrying about the Shintao PrE.

I think your wrong

the very best response you could expect is that they are aware and will be making changes to the pre in a future update ... and that would make people happy at least until the changes are announced and then you would get hate on again ...

people dont hate it when dev team tells them they are looking into something or thinking about doing something ...

perfect example .... exalted smite

eladrin said they are thinking about adding exalted smite to shintao III

when he said that i went out and made two more light monks thinking shintao all the way dark monk was going to be a joke .... i even started multiple threads about it ... excited about shintao III ....

the hate started when shintao III was not in update 5 and then people started to tear it apart and figured since its not finished (much like pale master wasnt finished even though all three tiers came out) that there is still hope for suggestions to help change the pre before it does go live as a full pre (perhaps update 6).

I just think turbine needs to get someone to focus on giving updates to the people and let them know there conserns are being looked at ... even if its a lie

[zealous]

Except that, whether bugged or intended, the Protection from Evil ki ability does not advance finishing moves on the preview server.

Well it is written to count as a light move and as such should advance finishers so If it doesn't it surely is something to bug report and get the pitchforks out for, yah?

The 10 second duration severly limits the utility. The ki cost of the finisher is also rather high at 25 ki, and that doesn't include the cost of the strikes themselves. I don't foresee this ability being used often, if at all.

Only if your unable to play a monk efficiently. 10s is plenty of time to reapply it and in 10s you could generate some 100+ ki so the cost is not that relevant either.

Wether it's useful or not would depend on if +5 tohit/skills is more worthwhile to spend your ki on than on healing/elemental strikes.

I have no idea what you're talking about on this one. There is nothing at all potent about the Shintao monk. You don't need to be Shintao to get the healing ki ability, and you can't cast it THAT much faster with Shintao. All finishing moves have a 6 second cooldown. Normally, you can only cast 1 Healing Ki every 9 to 10 seconds or so. With Shintao, you would theoretically be able to cast one every 6 seconds. Unfortunatly, that is not the case because the Protection from Evil ability doesn't advance finishing moves and the other "Light" strikes are on long cooldowns. You can basically wind up one very expensive Healing Ki in a few seconds once every 15 seconds.

So the limit here is once again the apparently bugged pfe ability.
All finishing moves do not have a cooldown, I was under the impression that you could spam it as fast as you could produce it. At least that's true for all the dark finishers including D-D-D.

Would you mind showing a ss or movie of healing ki being on cd, could be another bug.

Seeing as fol has a cd of 3s, you should be able to spam healing ki every 6-7s and if healing ki truly has a cd, the only point to shintao would then be to keep up moment of clarity.

Again, I will state that I think you are vastly overestimating the ability of the Shintao Monk to contribute to healing. They aren't much better (if at all) than your standard Fists of Light monk. Stack a party full of Path of Harmonious Balance monks, and they'd have the same effect for healing. The PrE itself does not add much value to this.

Shintao isn't useful. Healing Ki is useful. You don't need to be Shintao to use Healing Ki. Even if the Healing Ki ability is powerful, I have never seen an all-monk questing group. People don't spend the time to set those up with the intention of using monks as healers. It's not that they couldn't, but why would they? It's far easier to just get a real healer than find 6 monks willing to spend their ki healing the group.

My arguments are based on a non-bugged pfe ability and a no cd healing ki. If shintao goes live with a non-functioning pfe ability and if healing ki indeed does have a cd then the PrC basicly is a waste of AP.

If not, they have more than twice the healing capacity of a "regular FoL" monk.

It's not that they couldn't, but why would they? It's far easier to just get a real healer than find 6 monks willing to spend their ki healing the group.

It's partly about fun and partly about what brings the highest contribution to the group.

If a shintao can spam healing ki every 3s or less and the group in general has sufficient healing amp you won't exactly need 6 shintaos, they could fill the spot of a healer nigh as well as a traditional healer. As I previously wrote, the difference in melee potential between a general melee and a shintao is way less than the difference between a shintao and a stand in the back walking shrine. Thus two shintaos would bring more to the group than a general melee + healer.

Personally I would find playing a melee unarmed specced 14FvS/6 shintao more entertaining for raid healing than a stand in the back walking shrine.

[Brother_Solar]

Well it is written to count as a light move and as such should advance finishers so If it doesn't it surely is something to bug report and get the pitchforks out for, yah?

I did bug report it. I also spoke about it in the tenth post of this thread.

Oh, and just to make note, it uses an "I'm casting a spell" animation; it's not an attack. You don't get a swing when you use it.

All finishing moves do not have a cooldown

Oh but they do! You can test it yourself by pulling a specific finishing move icon out of your character's feats list (such as "Breath of the Fire Dragon") and placing it on your bar. When you use your combo for the finishing move you pulled out, then click your normal finishing move button (the one that changes when the finisher is ready), you will see that the specific finishing move that you pulled out goes on cooldown for 6 seconds. If you try to use it again before 6 seconds is up, nothing happens. I can see how you would be confused about it though, the cooldown visual doesn't show up on the button that changes to different finishing moves when they become available, it only shows on the specific finishing move icon if you pull it out of your feats list.

My arguments are based on a non-bugged pfe ability and a no cd healing ki. If shintao goes live with a non-functioning pfe ability and if healing ki indeed does have a cd then the PrC basicly is a waste of AP.

That's what I'm anticipating. No one from the developer end has spoken up to say otherwise.

[Drfirewater79]

not sure that pfe is bugged ...

does remove curse change the combo line?

I am pretty sure ... although cause i only used remove curse not 100% as rarely need it cept in TOD part 1

all the casting spell things dont change your combo or interupt it ... nore does stunning fist quivering palm or shintao smite.

my bet is its working as intended ... you need to use the fist attacks to further your ki combo and feated ki strikes like stunning fist and quivering palm are exempt cause it would seriously gimp monks to have there combos interupted that easily and no one would use combos if that was the case.

[Brother_Solar]

not sure that pfe is bugged ...

does remove curse change the combo line?

I wouldn't expect the remove curse ability to have any effect on combo generation. However, the Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil ability should count as a Light move for generating finishing moves. It says so at the end of the ability description:

At your touch, a magical barrier is created that wards a target from attacks by evil creatures, granting a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus to saves against attacks from evil creatures. The target is also warded from magical mental control and compulsions. This ability counts as a Light move.

My guess is, rather than making it work as a Light move as the description says, they'll take that off there for release in two weeks so it will be more accurate to how the ability is working on Lamannia.

[zealous]

I did bug report it. I also spoke about it in the tenth post of this thread.

Aye, I was trying to see a point to the PrC.

Oh, and just to make note, it uses an "I'm casting a spell" animation; it's not an attack. You don't get a swing when you use it.

While certainly a major drawback it's not entirely ability breaking. They really should look over the time consumption of abilities meant to be used in combat though. While healing ki still has a benefit, e.g. damage boost and divine might I generally costs more than they add which is quite silly.

Oh but they do! You can test it yourself by pulling a specific finishing move icon out of your character's feats list (such as "Breath of the Fire Dragon") and placing it on your bar. When you use your combo for the finishing move you pulled out, then click your normal finishing move button (the one that changes when the finisher is ready), you will see that the specific finishing move that you pulled out goes on cooldown for 6 seconds. If you try to use it again before 6 seconds is up, nothing happens. I can see how you would be confused about it though, the cooldown visual doesn't show up on the button that changes to different finishing moves when they become available, it only shows on the specific finishing move icon if you pull it out of your feats list.

Indeed
And thus my grasping for straws of reasoning behind the PrCs plunged into the abyss of confusion.

Without the pfe working as stated there is absolutely no point to the first tiers of the PrC. With a working pfe the only point would be to spam moment of clarity.

Moment of clarity is of dubious use though since the tohit would likely better be acchieved by using AC debuffs and the skill boost would be of extremely limited utility.

[Brother_Solar]

Indeed
And thus my grasping for straws of reasoning behind the PrCs plunged into the abyss of confusion.

Sorries.

[mboger]

The release date is in 2 weeks, the problems with the Shintao PrEs are balancing issues, so no matter what gets changed there are going to be complaints and if and when it gets changed they are going to want to be sure it is right.
The very best response you could expect is one of the devs commenting that they are aware and will try to do something in a future update, but a coment like that isn't going to go over very well.. so it's a no win situation for the devs. The fact is, that as sucky as the Shintao PrE's they aren't breaking anyone's build. My guess is that all the devs that would be doing anything with PrEs have their hands full with the roll out of the new combat system and for my subsciption money, I would rather have all devs on deck making sure that doesn't need a last minute fix than worrying about the Shintao PrE.

It's not like we waited until just this second to start complaining about the PrE. The moment it was announced, people started in on how worthless it is. While I agree that they probably wouldn't have had time, even if they wanted to, to completely redo the PrE along with all the other issues they're having with this release, they certainly had the time to do what I suggested in one of the other Shintao threads, which is to just offer a quicky place holder PrE for Shintao III that just gives Silver DR bypass for the cost of requiring Shintao II, Monk 18, and 2 AP and include it in U5 until they have the time to comeback and do the PrE properly.

But no, they'd rather work on new glitchy garbage to draw in the F2Pers than spend the time fixing things that should have been in the game and working properly a long time ago.

[Drfirewater79]

I wouldn't expect the remove curse ability to have any effect on combo generation. However, the Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil ability should count as a Light move for generating finishing moves. It says so at the end of the ability description:

My guess is, rather than making it work as a Light move as the description says, they'll take that off there for release in two weeks so it will be more accurate to how the ability is working on Lamannia.

LIGHT MOVE .... not light strike ...

in order for a combo to be progressed it must be a COMBO OF STRIKES ...

this is the reason it doesn't progress the chain ...

spells do not add strikes

by stating it is a light only move ... simply means that it is only doable by harmonious Light monks

which is pretty brain dead since shintao is a light only pre ... but it seems descriptions are becoming more brain dead and less detailed and informative with update 5

[Brother_Solar]

LIGHT MOVE .... not light strike ...

The descriptions of Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike and Shintao Monk: Smite Evil use the exact same wording ("This ability counts as a light move"), and they both do count towards building a finishing move.

No mention is made of "strikes" vs. "moves". To me, they mean the same thing. If they don't want Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil to count towards building a finishing move, then it shouldn't imply that it does in the ability description. Hence the complaint.

[mboger]

The descriptions of Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike and Shintao Monk: Smite Evil use the exact same wording ("This ability counts as a light move"), and they both do count towards building a finishing move.

No mention is made of "strikes" vs. "moves". To me, they mean the same thing. If they don't want Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil to count towards building a finishing move, then it shouldn't imply that it does in the ability description. Hence the complaint.

But as mentioned earlier, PFE uses a casting animation and doesn't count as an attack like the other light moves, so my guess is this is WAI. In fact, to go with the Shintao theme, I'd go ahead and assume that anything that makes this PrE look less attractive is WAI.

[Drfirewater79]

The descriptions of Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike and Shintao Monk: Smite Evil use the exact same wording ("This ability counts as a light move"), and they both do count towards building a finishing move.

No mention is made of "strikes" vs. "moves". To me, they mean the same thing. If they don't want Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil to count towards building a finishing move, then it shouldn't imply that it does in the ability description. Hence the complaint.

its not that i dont agree ... but at the same time ... it would annoy me endlessly if i was trying to do something else and had to use the buff for some dumb reason and have it remove my current combo like the umd boosting fire combo or something ..

i think the pre stuff is not intended to interupt the combo system already in place .... would prolly add more problems then bonuses with there coding which has proven to have many issues in the past especially when it comes to monks ... can anyone say handwraps not being treated as weapons is stupid (and the reason for no greensteel handwraps is stupider and no craftable or upgradable handwraps since greensteel was declared a never gonna happen issue is stupidest)

[Drfirewater79]

But as mentioned earlier, PFE uses a casting animation and doesn't count as an attack like the other light moves, so my guess is this is WAI. In fact, to go with the Shintao theme, I'd go ahead and assume that anything that makes this PrE look less attractive is WAI.

lol

while i dont agree i do think its fitting ...

at least the smite which is a direct attack (though is prolly coded as a single hit buff) should count to fill the LIGHT modifier for combos as it is a strike and not a spell ....

[Brother_Solar]

But as mentioned earlier, PFE uses a casting animation and doesn't count as an attack like the other light moves, so my guess is this is WAI. In fact, to go with the Shintao theme, I'd go ahead and assume that anything that makes this PrE look less attractive is WAI.

+1 for persistence