Shintao Monk

[Arkat]

I'd be for bypass Cold Iron DR at Tier I, bypass Silver DR at Tier II, and bypass Crystal/Byeshk at Tier III. These bypasses and in this order make the most sense considering what we run into at levels 6 (reavers, renders, flensers in Threnal), 12 (devils in Vale), and 18 (Inspired Quater stuff).

I'd be against giving Metalline at Tier III as it would overlap all metal bypass DRs we got previously thus making them irrelevant.

[Emili]

If that happens, it is nothing that Spellsinger II-III and Warchanter II-III couldn't remedy to by improving bards' non-Inspire Courage skills.

Buffbot classes are not fun. Bards should be about more than Inspire Courage, for example. It's fine that Inspire Courage is part of what makes bards good, but a group should not suffer a significant hit in DPS because they don't have a bard and bards should be about more stuff than simply casting a buff. This proxy-nerf of Inspire Courage allows bard to be more powerful in other areas without being overpowered and lowers the penalty of not having a bard.

It is not something negative for bards. In fact, it is quite positive.

Hmmm, Inspire Courage +7 to +9 in damage, per swing, not to mention to-hit... Now tell us in nerfing those melee by this amount that another full BaB twf or thf melee instead of a jack of trades would not more than compensate for not having a bard ... especially since the current scope of melee be so toned back again... those twf with better double strike are equal to two of bards output, a rogue have SA and a Monk specialities in in strikes and frankly bards spell casting and healing abilites are not what a Sorc, FvS or Cleric in any measure without great focus. A bard in essence makes a party better yet delivers very little in itself in any one area is outclassed and sometimes doubly. Currently non-inspire courage skills are often sought less ... onesy on a tank, or possibly a trapsmith - rarely ... the core of the dr and spell dc/sp saves on current end game while not turned away are not viewed as any real comfort by those tweaked out running such... aside from inspire fascinate is much all they have.

[zealous]

If that happens, it is nothing that Spellsinger II-III and Warchanter II-III couldn't remedy to by improving bards' non-Inspire Courage skills.

As I pointed out, yes. The problem with that is that it might be preferential to make changes that stand on their own instead of making changes that themselves require changes.

Add a item replicating a higher level item but with added benefits instead of adding a item with different benefits and all that.

Buffbot classes are not fun.

Not necessarily. If I'm not at the top of my game I can't play a caster or a high end melee build to satisfaction, not being able to push the character to it's limits becomes more irritating than the scant irritation of seeing smaller red digits/more saves when playing a buff bot. It's also nice when I need frequent afks.

Bards should be about more than Inspire Courage, for example. It's fine that Inspire Courage is part of what makes bards good, but a group should not suffer a significant hit in DPS because they don't have a bard and bards should be about more stuff than simply casting a buff.

For what level ranges/content can the bard provide more stuff than buffs though?

Melee requires extensive focus and due to the massive gap from bards to clerics, not to mention to "real" melee classes, the song is the only thing keeping viability afloat.

CC is only useful for limited content and suffers from needing extensive focus and then still being massively eclipsed by "real" casters.

Healing is ofc possible, but for content balanced around the healing capacity of "real" healers, mana might not be sufficient without padding with pots. And well, a well played shintao could have the potential to endlessly spam out mass heals.

This proxy-nerf of Inspire Courage allows bard to be more powerful in other areas without being overpowered and lowers the penalty of not having a bard.

Since bards have comparably low dps, the group dps benefit of having a bard as opposed to a high end melee is defenitely dubious for 6 man content, to some extent for raids too.

The tohit bonus is ofc beneficial to some extent, the shintao can already match that though, granted that that will exclude providing continuous healing.

It is not something negative for bards. In fact, it is quite positive.

If you look at it somewhat harshly, disregarding that bards are kinda fun to play and that most content is so easy that worrying about suboptimality is silly...

Bards are only viable when played by someone new or in raids. The class fills a important function allowing new players to get experience with both healing, casting and melee in one character. It will provide the experience necessary to play other classes, make the players lack of skill and twink less important, allow the new player to observe those more experienced and last but not least allow the new player entry into raids. Simply put, it's a piking class.

Proxy nerfing the songs will remove all benefit of adding a bard to the group thus efficiently killing the class.

[Borror0]

As I pointed out, yes. The problem with that is that it might be preferential to make changes that stand on their own instead of making changes that themselves require changes.

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. If you buff bards first, bards might become too powerful; if you buff shintao monks first, bards might become too weak. The rest of your post show why it would be a beneficial change for Warchanter II-III and Spellsinger II-III to maker bards about more than buffs. Whether you buff shintao or bards first, something might break. It does not mean the changes are not beneficial in the long run.

[Aesop]

• Shintao Monk I
  
  • Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance, Monk Concentration II, Monk Improved Recovery I, and any one of Divine Health, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Diehard, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Precision, Resilience, Self Sufficient, or Stunning Fist.
  • Cost: 4 AP
  • Benefit: You gain the ability to expend ki to smite evil creatures, and can create a Righteous Aura that empowers your allies against evil opponents. Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byeshk damage reduction.
  • Shintao Monk: Aura of the Righteous
    
    • Cost: 15 Ki
    • Benefit: You use your Ki to surround yourself with a golden radiant aura of positive energy, those within the aura gain a +1 Sacred bonus on attack and damage rolls against evil creatures. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  • Shintao Monk: Smite Evil
    
    • Cost: 10 Ki
    • Benefit: You have the ability to expend ki to deal devastating blows in melee against evil creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  
• Shintao Monk II
  
  • Prereqs: Level 12 Monk, Shintao Monk I, and any of Rise of the Phoenix or Monk Improved Recovery III.
  • Cost: 2 AP
  • Benefit: Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction. The critical multiplier and threat range of your monk Smite Evil are both increased by one, while the cooldown timer is decreased by 3 sec. The bonus granted by your aura of the righteous increases by 1.
    
  • Shintao Monk: Dismissing Strike
    
    • Cost: 25 Ki
    • Benefit: You perform a melee attack that attempts to force an extra planar enemy back to its proper plane. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). This ability counts as a Light move.
    
    
  
  

The duration for the Aura would be 1 min or so and the base cooldown on Smite Evil would be 15 sec



Aesop

[Brother_Solar]

I would really like to hear something from the developers on the subject of the Shintao Monk.

Player/tester input has basically been: "The Shintao Monk PrE is currently not worth what it costs to take it. In fact, you'd have to pay me to take it."

Even so, they haven't given so much as a "Ok, we hear you, we'll think about it."

[mboger]

I would really like to hear something from the developers on the subject of the Shintao Monk.

Player/tester input has basically been: "The Shintao Monk PrE is currently not worth what it costs to take it. In fact, you'd have to pay me to take it."

Even so, they haven't given so much as a "Ok, we hear you, we'll think about it."

Their silence has already been explained.

But seriously, this is horrible customer service on Turbine's part that they'd rather us spin tales of light monks molesting WB execs than take the 5 seconds to say either "Shut up, Shintao is working as intended" or "You guys are right! We really had our heads up our "portable holes" when we designed that PrE!"

[Brother_Solar]

Their silence has already been explained.

But seriously, this is horrible customer service on Turbine's part that they'd rather us spin tales of light monks molesting WB execs than take the 5 seconds to say either "Shut up, Shintao is working as intended" or "You guys are right! We really had our heads up our "portable holes" when we designed that PrE!"

I did read your explanation, and I was amused. However, I try to keep my own posts and concerns fairly PC; fighting on the internet doesn't interest me (a friend once told me that getting in a fight with an a-hole will only end up badly for me, they'd drag me down to their level then beat me with experience).

I have immense respect for the developers (after all, they have created something that has given me uncounted hours of entertainment), and I try to understand where they are coming from whenever possible.

However, if they don't respond to concerns when posted from multiple sources, then there isn't much I can work with from my end. I certainly don't know the ins and outs of programming to feel qualified to venture a guess as to why they haven't said anything about a change that has received a lot of negative feedback (I don't think I've seen anyone post anything positive at all about the current implimentation of the Shintao Monk PrE). The Shintao Monk isn't a game-breaking addition, it's just... not very good.

*shrug* I can only politely request attention. Sure, I'd like to wail and gnash my teeth too, but that won't really do me or them any good.

[mboger]

*shrug* I can only politely request attention. Sure, I'd like to wail and gnash my teeth too, but that won't really do me or them any good.

Fair enough, you're a better man than me. You take the high road and I'll take the low and hopefully one of our paths will lead to the devs at least *acknowledging* our opinion of the current lackluster Shintao implementation.

+1 for keeping it classy.

Edit: Although in my defense, I didn't take a turn for the "un-PC" until it was fairly obvious that we were being ignored, but the devs seemed to have plenty of time to make 40 comments in the "1d6 vs 1-6" thread.

[NXPlasmid]

I would really like to hear something from the developers on the subject of the Shintao Monk.

Player/tester input has basically been: "The Shintao Monk PrE is currently not worth what it costs to take it. In fact, you'd have to pay me to take it."

Even so, they haven't given so much as a "Ok, we hear you, we'll think about it."

/agreed
I have two light monks, one 20 and the other at lvl12 on his first TR and I am just going to add my dissapointment with the Shintao PrEs for the reasons most have given. Unfortunately, there are a lot of other perhaps more serious issues with U5 and so I am guessing that we'll not hear from Eladrin on this and it will go live without any changes. Maybe in U6 they'll teak it to fix things, but for now I am just going to ignore the Shintao PrE line, as will be the case for most light monks...

[timidobserver]

I gotta say that the most annoying thing about this is the 100% silence from the devs. I'd even feel better if one of them popped in and said we are leaving it the way it is so tough. A response of any type would be appreciated though.

[Aerendil]

I gotta say that the most annoying thing about this is the 100% silence from the devs. I'd even feel better if one of them popped in and said we are leaving it the way it is so tough. A response of any type would be appreciated though.

I think that's the general consensus from a LOT of DDO players, and it's something that Turbine needs to address.
Phax responded to quite a few threads yesterday, but that was that most feedback we've had on Update 5 to date - and there are still quite a few threads with major issues that haven't been responded to which gives the impression that they are not listening.

It's especially frustrating when you see a thread where the Turbine reps post a comment or two, disregarding the entirety of the thread and all of the complaints/issues brought forth. Prime example is the "Sir Poincelot" one, which is filled with numerous complaints on how inefficient / silly / foolish / etc. it was, yet when a Turbine employee finally posted in there, it was along the lines of "Event is over now, glad everyone had a good time!", ignoring the 7+ pages of complaints about the "event". This just further heightens the impression that Turbine isn't listening.

Now, is it accurate to say they're really not listening? No, I know it's not. I know the devs are working behind the scenes to fix things, and things *are* being changed due to our feedback. And I can guarantee you that they've read this thread, and perhaps even discussed amongst themselves how best to alter Shintao.
But I do understand completely your frustration, because it's the silence from Turbine that insinuates they're not listening. Or worse, that they don't care. And that will make them lose customers. I just hope they realize that, and work on their customer service/relations before it's too late.

[Aerendil]

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. If you buff bards first, bards might become too powerful; if you buff shintao monks first, bards might become too weak. The rest of your post show why it would be a beneficial change for Warchanter II-III and Spellsinger II-III to maker bards about more than buffs. Whether you buff shintao or bards first, something might break. It does not mean the changes are not beneficial in the long run.

Yeah, I'd imagine this is the crux of the issue, and I would also throw in Purple Dragon Knight which has yet to be announced, but which had certain Bard-like Inspire Courage abilities thrown in.

[Drfirewater79]

I'd be for bypass Cold Iron DR at Tier I, bypass Silver DR at Tier II, and bypass Crystal/Byeshk at Tier III. These bypasses and in this order make the most sense considering what we run into at levels 6 (reavers, renders, flensers in Threnal), 12 (devils in Vale), and 18 (Inspired Quater stuff).

I'd be against giving Metalline at Tier III as it would overlap all metal bypass DRs we got previously thus making them irrelevant.

so your against metalline cause it bypasses drs we already get but you want to make bysehk Tier III instead when there is no mindflayers after Giant hold ????

it makes no sense

the reason for metaline at tier III is because it bypasses all metal Style DR's which follows the Monk style for shintao ... becoming so connected with the world around him that his fists act like every type of metal rather then just one or two types.

only two mobs in the game with crystal DR but cause monks need the DPS boost i suggest

Metaline/Crystal/wood ... for tier III

so I could even say go further ... TRANSMUTING FIST (AP cost 3) ... this makes the most sense with the shintao group ....

reason being right now (live and lama) there is no point in being a shintao monk ... dark monks can do everything they can do and better ...

with a little umd and the right equip I can cast a 4 min Mass protection from evil @110% on live I can cast 70% full heal (miss on 5 and lower) I can cast GH on myself (50% before i have gh but a clicky and maintaining at 70%) .... blur @ 110% for 3 mins instead of 1 min ....

this is all on live with a dark monk ... i can solo missions in aramath (with exception of parts required to have two people like gen point maze) on normal and some on hard (have yet to try elite) with less then 100 heal scrolls.

with a light monk i can do a little better in the umd department cause of the +2 to skills from fire combo and heal for about 40 then with right equip and luck of crit i have seen as high as 178

but i do 178 in fire stance with a heal scroll every time. and while +2 would bring me to a fail on a 3 or less ... i will take the difference in return for 500 points of damage every 15 seconds any day.

...............

shintao need all the help they can get ... personally i think transmuting fists wouldnt be over powered considering how underpowered shintao are to begin with.

[Drfirewater79]

Their silence has already been explained.

But seriously, this is horrible customer service on Turbine's part that they'd rather us spin tales of light monks molesting WB execs than take the 5 seconds to say either "Shut up, Shintao is working as intended" or "You guys are right! We really had our heads up our "portable holes" when we designed that PrE!"

when have you ever heard Turbine own up to being wrong ???

even pale master had fist DEV response saying they thought pale master at launch was a great success ... it sucks balls ... and just now might be worth taking update 5 at least they can heal themselves again.

[zealous]

reason being right now (live and lama) there is no point in being a shintao monk ... dark monks can do everything they can do and better ...

Not really.

with a little umd and the right equip I can cast a 4 min Mass protection from evil @110% on live I can cast 70% full heal (miss on 5 and lower) I can cast GH on myself (50% before i have gh but a clicky and maintaining at 70%) .... blur @ 110% for 3 mins instead of 1 min ....

Scrolling costs time, time lost is dps lost.

with a light monk i can do a little better in the umd department cause of the +2 to skills from fire combo and heal for about 40 then with right equip and luck of crit i have seen as high as 178

You forget moment of clarity for +5 tohit/skills. You severly underestimate the amount of healing you can do seeing as sup.ardor I and no healing amp whatsoever should result in 60 average.

You're also forgetting about reduced spell costs and stun immunity.

You could argue that the spell point reduction is negligible in the face of easy availability of mana pots, you're not doing that though.

You could argue that stun immunity is too situational to be of general importance, you're not doing that though.

You could argue that the healing is too low to matter, irregardless of healing amp or group composition. You're not doing that and it'd be somewhat of a difficult argument to pull off.

The main benefit of the pfe clicky is obviously that it enables you to spam light finishers at a rapid pace.
---
I would argue that shintao in it's current implementation might be too potent.
The melee potential of a shintao monk isn't all that far behind other melee. The melee potential of a twinked out shintao is immensly higher than a stand in the back walking shrine.

A human monk can easily achieve 100% healing amp. 6 of those going spammity spam at L-L-L-HK would be the equivalent of some 120-240+ hp/s. Is there any content in the game where received damage is that high?

One shintao might be a weak addition to your average pug, the stackability of free healing would make them op if they got better and they might already be.

[Borror0]

when have you ever heard Turbine own up to being wrong ???

Epic Sword of Shadows

[mboger]

I gotta say that the most annoying thing about this is the 100% silence from the devs. I'd even feel better if one of them popped in and said we are leaving it the way it is so tough. A response of any type would be appreciated though.

Oh, we'll get a response alright. Sometime around mid July, Mad Floyd will post that he was under the impression we all felt the Shintao PrE was awesome.

[Drfirewater79]

Epic Sword of Shadows

they didnt own up for it being over powered .. .it took months of players saying it was over powered before they nerfed it and never once even gave a suggestion that it would be nerfed until lama notes and that is why everyone was in uproar over it.

[Drfirewater79]

Not really.


Scrolling costs time, time lost is dps lost.

it takes less time to scroll then it takes to do a combo to get the desired effect and since the scrolls last longer they can be done before battle and last through battle in 90% of the situations ... scrolls take just as long to cast as clikies and mass heal from light monks takes 35 seconds to cast while I full heal in battle and switch back (by the way with two tod rings i am still doing decent damage with scroll in hand as scrolls count as unarmed attacks) i lose much less then i gain.

This is coming from someone who has been the biggest light monk supporter until two weeks ago when i got my titan gloves and realized there is way more advantages then disadvantages ....

time lost in dps is made up in a big way with 500 points every 15 seconds.

You forget moment of clarity for +5 tohit/skills. You severly underestimate the amount of healing you can do seeing as sup.ardor I and no healing amp whatsoever should result in 60 average.

i have reavers gloves ... which do superior healing lore ... i use tolkadas belt clickie which is sup ardor 8 .... i as a halfling have monk healing amp 3 and highest i have ever hit is 183 average is still around 50 non crit and over 110 average on crit and pots average at 35 but i have seen as high as 47.

You're also forgetting about reduced spell costs and stun immunity.

You could argue that the spell point reduction is negligible in the face of easy availability of mana pots, you're not doing that though.

You could argue that stun immunity is too situational to be of general importance, you're not doing that though.

spell costs are minimal bonus since they only last a min ... good for pre fight buffing but really in todays DDOstore society and mana pot farming being as easy as it is for those who want it (alot of casters at end game are holding 5-10 pots always and then beg for more if they use any in raids) and with bobbles and spell storing rings ... yeah the lost sp difference is not a big deal ... especially since it doesnt effect ki loss which is a bigger issue for monks.... since we dont have sp

stunning doesnt even count cause there is only one mission in the whole game that REQUIRES it ... and i have done many successful TOD's with no anti stunn ... it just requires better healers and better tanks. his stun only lasts like 4 seconds ...

and again i totally suggest people stay light monk until they get there tod ring sets ... its once you already have them that you no longer need to be the TOD buff boy .. .cause your dps is high enough to speak for itself and gain you a dps spot in any raid unless people dont know any better.

You could argue that the healing is too low to matter, irregardless of healing amp or group composition. You're not doing that and it'd be somewhat of a difficult argument to pull off.

The main benefit of the pfe clicky is obviously that it enables you to spam light finishers at a rapid pace.

PFE? not sure what is ... i have wind stance and haste clickies that last almost two mins and you cannot do anything to lower cool down times as far as i know ... so cool down is the issue ... you can only cast light fist 1 time every 6 seconds you need three before you can cast mass heal ...and most people also throw in stunning fist between or quivering palm between to keep there dps/kill count up while healing ...

fastest you can cast mass heal is 18 seconds and that is doing auto attack and hitting nothing but light fist and mass heal ... means no dps attacks from stance like storm fist 4 or stunning or quivering or unbalancing so on and so forth. and mass heals on OTHER PEOPLE who most dont have healing amp enhancements usually hitting for 20 on wf and 30-40 on non warforged highest i have seen on crit was 87 against a non monk.

---
I would argue that shintao in it's current implementation might be too potent.
The melee potential of a shintao monk isn't all that far behind other melee. The melee potential of a twinked out shintao is immensly higher than a stand in the back walking shrine.

A human monk can easily achieve 100% healing amp. 6 of those going spammity spam at L-L-L-HK would be the equivalent of some 120-240+ hp/s. Is there any content in the game where received damage is that high?

One shintao might be a weak addition to your average pug, the stackability of free healing would make them op if they got better and they might already be.

WHAT? too potent??? ISNT ALL THAT FAR BEHIND OTHER MELEE???? are you serious???

i cannot answer back to that kind of comment without getting infractions so i will just pretend like i didnt hear it at al....

human monks are gimped to all hell... i have one they suck dps wise ... but for the self healing with 6 amps and items you can heal yourself alot ... and so for a human monk whos dps is garunteed to be at least 8 points per swing less then a halfling monk your right ... but the same thing your forgetting goes to self healing .. .in fact scroll healing is easier and better on human monks ...

you can get the full healing amp and human versitility skill and do 100% umd on heal scrolls hitting for over 300 per scroll. and still do 500 points of damage every 15 seconds.

so the comparison one to the other still doesn't work ... bigger numbers will always come from full heal then cure light mass ... and only time they are comparable is on a crit which is not frequent enough to validate there healing ...

now if shintao had a healing crit aspect ... different story....

but it doesnt and wont ....its likely to be part of henshin mystic ... i am betting that henshin mystic has different aspects light vs dark .. .light prolly gets healing amp enhancements and dark prolly gets something like firewall.