Shintao Monk

[Coldin]

Gaining Cold Iron probably wouldn't feel so bad if there were more high level quests with Demons. As it is though, Devils are the main enemies past level 16.

[J1NG]

Because monks are lawful.

Demons are chaotic.
Devils are lawful.

Which one's damage reduction should a lawful class be more easily able to bypass? (Hypothetical question, the answer should be apparent.)

The problem there then is... Devils will NOT be a part of the Shintao chain if it follows Monk = Lawful. Shintao III will probably be something like Chaotic Outsider Bane. And even then, why Byshk for Shintao I? If it is Silver for Shintao III, it comes far too late. And what about Crystal? Mithral? Nothing to do with being Lawful? I'm sure Byshk will have a hard time falling under Lawful too really.

Logic should go out the window in favour of PrE direction. Ninja Spy gives sneaking and evasion (type effects). Shintao was to give DR bypassing at the cost of the AP and Feats needed innately from previews. Giving each one their own flavour.

Right now? Lets just say, Shintao PrE line is not wanted. At all. Not in it's current form. The Shintao PrE is obviously not about being able to innately bypass DR. It's about beating Demons and Aberrations (Shintao I and II). Why waste the AP and feats for this when you can mess around with the Dark path now? And indeed, the Void Stances? So much more effecient at killing the same stuff.

Hence, why so many see it as a wasted effort by the Devs. Many players desperately wanted the Shintao PrE line to be an answer so many have wanted for so long. A way to bypass DR if you want it on a monk, without needing to splash out on Metalline Handwraps of Pure Good or it's equivalent (ToD Ring with Metalline HW, as you need to go through ToD which is full of Devils, not Demons), or coming in waaay too late as Shintao III is obviously is now (even worse, it's not even obtainable right now) or on Handwraps that are Min Level 14+.

In short, the Shintao PrE line is dead for Update 5. And any update after too, at the very least until Shintao III is made available AND confirmed to be Silver. If not. Wasted effort. Completely. (In my opinion)

J1NG

[SolarDawning]

The problem there then is... Devils will NOT be a part of the Shintao chain if it follows Monk = Lawful. Shintao III will probably be something like Chaotic Outsider Bane. And even then, why Byshk for Shintao I? If it is Silver for Shintao III, it comes far too late. And what about Crystal? Mithral? Nothing to do with being Lawful? I'm sure Byshk will have a hard time falling under Lawful too really.

Uh... what?

Byshk bypasses the damage reduction of mindflayers.
In Ebberon, mindflayers are outsiders from Xoriat, the plane of pure chaos.

Thus, Shintao Monk 1 grants the metal type for directly combating the minions of the plane of pure chaos.
Shintao Monk II grants the metal type for combating demons, whom are also chaotic.

It makes sense to me.

[J1NG]

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Solar.

But it raises the point.

Mindflayers? And...?

Why not give Epic Eardweller Bane? One type of monster that isn't exactly often seen.

But by your own reasoning there about the materials. Again, Silver can not be a part of the Shintao PrE line by that logic. Hence, dissapointment.

J1NG

:: edit ::

Yeah, I'm from an era of DnD where Mindflayers were from the Astral Plane, so...

[SolarDawning]

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Solar.

But it raises the point.

Mindflayers? And...?

Why not give Epic Eardweller Bane? One type of monster that isn't exactly often seen.

But by your own reasoning there about the materials. Again, Silver can not be a part of the Shintao PrE line by that logic. Hence, dissapointment.

J1NG

Yeah, I do agree. It's a disappointing PrE, and I'm definitely going with Ninja Spy.
Shintao has a neat concept, and is very interesting, flavor-wise.
Mechanically, the benefits are too scarce for the action point cost.
(Note, I'm not mentioning the feat cost, as it can be fufilled by two feats which are being made very good in this update, namely Combat Expertise- which no longer cancels on monk finishers- and Stunning Fist.)
But the action points?... They're going to be very scarce, especially if we try to fit in the new void strikes.

Shintao Monk would be good if the Smite cooldown was halved, and some sort of benefit to healing received or Healing Ki power was implemented.

[Quijonsith]

Uh... what?

Byshk bypasses the damage reduction of mindflayers.
In Ebberon, mindflayers are outsiders from Xoriat, the plane of pure chaos.

Thus, Shintao Monk 1 grants the metal type for directly combating the minions of the plane of pure chaos.
Shintao Monk II grants the metal type for combating demons, whom are also chaotic.

It makes sense to me.

When you put it that way it does make some sense. Unfortanately it doesn't make me feel any better about the PrE. Especially after Eladrin said:

The Shintao Monasteries require you to burn a feat on a pyre to prove your devotion to fighting against evil.

So first it was about fighting evil and this PrE was supposed to be so powerful that we have to burn an otherwise near useless feat.

Then he said:

It does make sense for a Lawful class to bypass Chaotic outsider DR easier than Lawful outsider DR as well.

So I'd imagine shintao III having silver, but since that's not coming out in U5 for now this PrE is still to me a total fail.

[J1NG]

So I'd imagine shintao III having silver, but since that's not coming out in U5 for now this PrE is still to me a total fail.

My only issue is of course, the most evil thing I've seen bar the Devils and Demons is really those from the Dreaming Dark. Hence, Crystal. Unless we're being told they're not evil now, where are monks going to get DR bypassing for that? Shintao IV?

J1NG

[SolarDawning]

My only issue is of course, the most evil thing I've seen bar the Devils and Demons is really those from the Dreaming Dark. Hence, Crystal. Unless we're being told they're not evil now, where are monks going to get DR bypassing for that? Shintao IV?

J1NG

Barring that... there's always Dreamspitter! Crystal and GEOB in one handy 1d6 20x2 package. =)

...Okay, probably still better just to use wraps.

[QuantumFX]

But by your own reasoning there about the materials. Again, Silver can not be a part of the Shintao PrE line by that logic. Hence, disappointment.

Well, D&D 3.5 is fond of spreading the love to smiting “chaos” and “evil” when a traditionally lawful class is involved.

The Cold Iron bypass wouldn’t be that bad if this mod included tier III with a Silver bypass. Around level 12ish you wind up facing a lot of renders/reavers that have DR\Cold Iron and/or Good. With the new levelling mechanic of “For max XP run this quest at 1 effective level less than your character.” you will get some use out of it with Co6, Thernal Ruins, Invaders, Desert, etc.

[J1NG]

Well, D&D 3.5 is fond of spreading the love to smiting “chaos” and “evil” when a traditionally lawful class is involved.

The Cold Iron bypass wouldn’t be that bad if this mod included tier III with a Silver bypass. Around level 12ish you wind up facing a lot of renders/reavers that have DR\Cold Iron and/or Good. With the new levelling mechanic of “For max XP run this quest at 1 effective level less than your character.” you will get some use out of it with Co6, Thernal Ruins, Invaders, Desert, etc.

Certainly agree that if Shintao III which was confirmed to have Silver DR bypass was included things will be different for the Shintao PrE line.

As for those quest lines however... Assuming anyone even runs those chains often enough. Most of the time, there's enough XP in the standard quests to shoot you straight into Gianthold. Where you don't need to mess around with much DR problems. Then, you head to the Vale, and well...

What would most people run those quest lines for? Bar the Desert, all those other chains which are Demon heavy are... well... Not run often. Even with experienced people. It's often "Elite opener wanted". Non XP run. ie, Favour and that one item they want run (Mantle of the Worldshaper, etc).

And of course, some of those chains aren't made any easier either. Threnal East 3 anyone? Yeah, no amount of Shintao levels which grant whatever DR bypassing will help in that dark, dank, murky hole of a quest.

J1NG

[Kriogen]

Add "undead" to Shintao Monk: Dismissal. In current form its weak.

[Desteria]

lets see imp recover 3 takes what 2-4-6 Ap's thats A TONE there! + the 2 feats for the shinto 1, you only need cold iron over good for what DQ, every thign else you need CI for good works and is way easyer to get cheap... I want to keep my monk light, becuase i like the support finishers but i might have to change to dark JUST for the a PRC thats actuly worth taking.

[QuantumFX]

What would most people run those quest lines for? Bar the Desert, all those other chains which are Demon heavy are... well... Not run often. Even with experienced people. It's often "Elite opener wanted". Non XP run. ie, Favour and that one item they want run (Mantle of the Worldshaper, etc).

XP. I run all those quests at least 3 times when I level a True Reincarnate.

[J1NG]

XP. I run all those quests at least 3 times when I level a True Reincarnate.

OK, besides the TR lot too who clearly need the xp to come from somewhere!

But I'm talking on behalf of the starting Monks, who don't need as much xp. They need something to bypass the DR of Devils, as they will likely shoot past into GH. Those who have run before will likely be kitted out and don't care about having Silver.

It's not the same when you start of. Anyone remember feeling pretty weak in comparison to others? And how little most was accepted into runs? (Please exclude yourself if you're in a big or experienced guild, not everyone is one of those )

The Shintao PrE could have been a lifeline for them, but right now, it's essentially an undesired PrE due to many factors.

It's no good giving us things we "could" end up using in the future.

J1NG

[zealous]

So with a bunch of light attacks and the pfe thingy having a cd of 3s it should be possible to off a healing ki every 3-6s, continously as long as you have something to beat on.

Now, with a simple sup ardor clicky you're looking at some 60ish healed on average, not counting healing amp.

Getting some 60%+ healing amp would be more or less automatic for a human monk so 100ish a pop or more.

Now throw some 10+ of em at your favorite raid and you're looking at some 100-300hp/s.

How would 2 shintao monks compare against 2 clerics one would wonder.

[Weeday]

So with a bunch of light attacks and the pfe thingy having a cd of 3s it should be possible to off a healing ki every 3-6s, continously as long as you have something to beat on.

Now, with a simple sup ardor clicky you're looking at some 60ish healed on average, not counting healing amp.

Getting some 60%+ healing amp would be more or less automatic for a human monk so 100ish a pop or more.

Now throw some 10+ of em at your favorite raid and you're looking at some 100-300hp/s.

How would 2 shintao monks compare against 2 clerics one would wonder.

Nice thought, but I don't know how I feel about spending THAT much AP just to toss out heals all through a fight.

[elyssaria]

Hmmm.. I must admit that I am very disappointed in the Shintao PrC as well. When I first saw Shintao I, then I thought ok that one is not that good. However I thought Shintao II would make up for the Shintao I not being that useful.

So now when we get to see Shintao II it surely makes me loose the interest for Shintao II. I really hope that they will make changes to this PrC or otherwise my only hope would be the Henshin Mystic (or converting to dark path).

Still we have to remember that this is lamannia, it's not released yet. Hopefully the devs will see our impressions and make the necessary changes until it's fully released.

/Khierra

[SirShen]

Would like to test it but on Lamannia Stunning Fist is not showing up in the list. So cant test it. Sighhhhh.

[IgorHackNSlasher]

I'd like to see shintao II grant banishing fists as a passive feat, this would help bring it in line more but it is still vastly underpowered and overpriced compared to Ninja Spy. Shintao III had better grant something great when it is introduced or this is a complete waste of an enhancement line. Shintao III- granting lawful damage (3d6) or holy and metalline would make it worthwhile I think. I hope its current incarnation gets an overhaul before live otherwise we'll be seeing very few Lt. side monks.

[Angelus_dead]

Shintao Monk II
Prerequisites: 42 Action Points spent, Monk level 12, Shintao Monk I, and one of: Rise of the Phoenix or Monk Improved Recovery III
Invaders from other realities have learned to fear your prowess. You gain the ability to expend ki to dismiss outsiders, and your unarmed attacks now bypass Cold Iron damage reduction.

Shintao II (and III) really needs Smite Evil to continue improving like it does for Paladins. The devs should remember that giving Paladins Exalted Smite was crucial to making those players feel like Smite Evil was worthwhile.

Shintao Smite Evil II should have +1 crit multiplier, +1 critical threat, and 25 second cooldown (5 less). The Ki cost should only increase by 0-1.
Shintao Smite Evil III would bring it to a total of +2 multiplier, threat, and 20 second cooldown.

That means the unarmed smite is like a 17-20/x4 weapon. That brings the extra damage from Smite Evil to a 75% chance of +67, a 10% chance of +418, and a 10% chance of +367 (assuming regular hit is 50). That's an average total of +128 damage, or 25% of what dark monks have been doing with TOD since level 9. If the devs feel an x4 attack with +67 damage is too good at killing a stunned monster, they could instead swap the +multiplier for more +threat, making it a 12-20/x2 attack instead.


PS. In addition, Shintao monks should get +1 use of Paladin Smite Evil, and stack Monk+Paladin levels for the purpose of Smite Evil damage from either class. They should probably also get an AC aura like paladins, but weaker.