1 to 6 damage? Really?

[Rumbaar]

It's a bit lame, but if it means that all in game text will be corrected to actually reflect the items true statistics then I'm all for it.

There are currently far too many items with incorrect or incomplete descriptions. This should be addressed before any dumbing down of descriptions.

That should be your priority Turbine Quality control people.

[Noctus]

I like the color. I dislike losing the 1d6. I like the effort to make descriptions clear.

/ditto.

[MarcusCole]

You didn't "lose" any dice. It's there beneath the new text in your screenshot:

"Delivers a jolt of 1 to 6 electricity damage per caster level (up to a max of 30 damage at caster level 5) to any enemy you touch.

D&D Dice: Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6)"

I recommend folks wait until the release notes are posted tomorrow before providing extensive feedback. We enabled Lamannia for folks to start their character copies today, and release notes and feedbacking will begin tomorrow.

If you insist on describing the damage keep the D&D terminology in the primary description and put the WoWified description as the aside!

[Mockduck]

If you insist on describing the damage keep the D&D terminology in the primary description and put the WoWified description as the aside!

Indeed, it could be rewritten to be:

1d6 damage

(Translated version: 1 to 6 damage. Damage makes monsters go ouch til they die.)

[Borror0]

Boo. It's minor, but I hate this. Respect D&D!

No, it's not minor. From a templating perspective, it's a major change (for the worse). It drastically increases wordiness in description. Short descriptions are important because people don't read and have poor reading comprehension.

The "D&D Dice" version is far better: "Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6)."

It gets even better when more complicated dices are involved, such as 1d3+3's are involved. The "D&D Dice" version still reads well: "Deals 1d3+3 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d3+15)." However, the "newbie friendly version" reads extremely poorly: "Delivers a jolt of 1 to 3 plus three 3 electricity damage per caster level (up to a max of 30 damage at caster level 5) to any enemy you touch." Additionally, the existence of two description in one is needlessly confusing (and leads to ridiculously wordy description when you have items such as Dream Edge).

The fact that I, the one who pushed the hardest for better descriptions, think it's a bad idea should be telling.

What you should, instead, is to steal a page from Magic The Gathering's book and add reminder text to stuff low level player are likely to read such as low level items and spells. Then, slowly phase out the reminder text as the character level increases. That way, the new players are taught the rules slowly.

For example, the description of Shocking Grasp could read:
"Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6). (A d6 is a six sided dice. The number preceding it refers to the number of dice thrown at once.)"

But... The spell doesn't DO 1 to 6 electricity damage.

Why aren't the descriptions accurate?

Exactly. It does 1d3+3 damage per caster level, which makes my above point even more important.

[Cetus]

Really turbine?

This is insulting to the point of me wanting to break my computer.

[asphodeli]

If you insist on describing the damage keep the D&D terminology in the primary description and put the WoWified description as the aside!

/signed

[ahpook]

Whilst borrorrorro said it better, I will still add that 3-18 is not the same as 3d6. There are probablistic results that are conveyed with 3d6 that is tougher to discern in the dumbed down format.

The fact that the higher level and more complicated item is missing the Die format also flies in the face of the WotC model of putting explanation text on the simple items and leaving it off the more advanced items. Do we have to go bring WotC into this? Don't they still have some oversight here?

[tinyelvis]

It is kinda lame to change the damage description and still write the incorrect damage. Why don't you put the correct damage in the description if you are going to take the time to rewrite.

For example, few spells do 1 - 6 damage. Correct damage is more like 1d3+3. So, the more verbose version should read 4 - 6 damage. This is really what causes damage confusion for people.

[Curate2]

It's not just cosmetic, either. Is 3-12 the result of 3d4, or 1d10+2? In addition to expected value, the distribution can be important. Depending on the situation and/or personal preferences, you may favor more narrowly distributed middling results over more widely distributed results, or vice versa.

[Borror0]

What you should, instead, is to steal a page from Magic The Gathering's book and add reminder text to stuff low level player are likely to read such as low level items and spells. Then, slowly phase out the reminder text as the character level increases. That way, the new players are taught the rules slowly.

For example, the description of Shocking Grasp could read:
"Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6). (A d6 is a six sided dice. The number preceding it refers to the number of dice thrown at once.)"

I'll elaborate a little bit on this passage.

In Magic The Gathering, there are some keywords used in place of the full explanation of the attribute or ability. Keywords have three functions: they ease communication by giving a single word to communicate the ability, instead of a phrase; they reduce the amount of words on a card for that ability, leaving room for more abilities which, in turn, expends the design space; and they make more complex cards easier to read to veteran players.

Of course, there is a drawback to keywords: it's harder for new players to understand a card.

That is why the cards in core sets - the sets aimed at new players - have reminder texts for each keyword. The goal is that "that way new players will get to learn what all the basic Magic abilities (like flying, first strike, fear, and vigilance) actually do. Hopefully, by the time they move up to expert level sets they won't be confused when they run into a keyword like 'defender' and everybody just winds up happier than they have been." Additionally, when a new keyword is introduced in a block, commons have a reminder text for that keyword but rares cards might not.

This is the model DDO should be copying, as it achieves the best of both world.

In DDO, the places where a reminder text belongs could be:

1. All feats that have a requirement that can be achieved before BAB 6.
2. Level 3 spells and lower.
3. All items whose ML is lower than 6.
4. All skills.
5. All enhancements below level 6.
6. Anything that the player is unlikely to have read about before that moment, even if it is high level.

By following these guidelines, it should cover most of the gameplay experience while not harassing veterans with stuff they already know like what a d6 or what being paralyzed means. The problem of keywords making the game hard to learn is real, but wordiness is a problem too.

By the way, here are a few things that could use a reminder text:

• All conditions (explaining what it does)
• All abilities (explaining the basic of what it grants)
• Everything with a bonus type (explaining stacking)
• Dodge and Exceptional bonuses (explaining how it stacks)
• Hate/aggro (explaining what it is, a bit)
• DC (what it does)
• Possibly other stuff in that list I didn't think of

[paan]

It's not just cosmetic, either. Is 3-12 the result of 3d4, or 1d10+2? In addition to expected value, the distribution can be important. Depending on the situation and/or personal preferences, you may favor more narrowly distributed middling results over more widely distributed results, or vice versa.

I agree with this. Unless you are going to list the probablity of each of the value in the range in the text, it doesn't convey all th information.

[Ethias]

Please have the "D&D Dice" description first. If you absolutely demand to have two tooltips for everything, make the "1 to 6" the "alternative" near the bottom.

I understand putting this on newbie gear, as has been suggested, but I really do not think it is necessary for most stuff. People very quickly realize what xdx means.

[Timjc86]

I definitely find the new text more confusing. And I don't have a PnP background... at all.

If you're going to keep the new, wordier descriptions, please investigate adding a UI Option to choose between the two (wordier "1 to 6" or D&D "1d6".)

[Fafnir]

Leave it 1d6 please

[Borror0]

Additionally, the existence of two description in one [...] leads to ridiculously wordy description when you have items such as Dream Edge

In Magic The Gathering, there are some keywords used in place of the full explanation of the attribute or ability. Keywords have three functions: [...] they reduce the amount of words on a card for that ability, leaving room for more abilities which, in turn, expends the design space

I would like to put these two comments of mine together to make another point.

Here's the post-Update 5 Dream Edge (via MarcusCole):


A lot of these descriptions are extremely wordy. At this pace, you will end up with descriptions so long that they cannot fit into one screen as you slowly stack weapon enchantment over weapon enchantment. Not only are descriptions more stuff to read for, well, nothing but it could eventually limit design space. Those descriptions should be trimmed down to the essential.

For example, Dream Edge could read:

+5 Enhancement Bonus: Weapons with this quality
gain a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage.

Maiming: Whenever you score a critical hit with this
weapon, it deals 1d6 extra untyped damage and another
1d6 for each number the critical multiplier is above 2.

Aligned: This weapon can bypass good, evil, chaotic
and lawful DR.

Bodyfeeder: When this weapon scores a critical hit, you
gain 15 temporary HP for the next minute. In the event of
multiple critical hits, those hit points do not stack.

Chaotic Outsider Bane: Against chaotic outsiders, this
weapon deals an additional 2d6 damage and its enhancement
bonus to damage and attack increased by 2.

Suppressed Power: You sense this weapon has not unlocked
all of its secrets.

With the exception of Maiming, all of those descriptions are now shorter and easier to read.

Maiming could use some templating help, to better explain it, but it's better than the current one because it is both more accurate and less wordy. Unless I remember incorrectly, Maiming deals 4d6 for x5 multiplier and 5d6 for x6 multipliers but the description does not explain this. It stops at x4, which makes it inaccurate and misleading. It is important to find a good template for such effects because Maiming is not the only effect in that category. burst (like flaming burst) and blasts (like good last) also have similar descriptions.

[suitepotato]

You didn't "lose" any dice. It's there beneath the new text in your screenshot:

"Delivers a jolt of 1 to 6 electricity damage per caster level (up to a max of 30 damage at caster level 5) to any enemy you touch.

D&D Dice: Deals 1d6 electricity damage per caster level (max 5d6)"

I recommend folks wait until the release notes are posted tomorrow before providing extensive feedback. We enabled Lamannia for folks to start their character copies today, and release notes and feedbacking will begin tomorrow.

Exactly what was the rationale for not only doing it two ways, but taking the time to code those changes? Seriously, I would love to know, because I can't even conceive of one without resorting to a Dilbert collection and picking the mind of the PHB as it were.

My former coworker who wanted router stats in in bits AND bytes AND wanted them in per second, minute, and hour counts BEFORE any statistics were run on the output is popping into my head now.

[Mister_Peace]

Exactly what was the rationale for not only doing it two ways, but taking the time to code those changes? Seriously, I would love to know, because I can't even conceive of one without resorting to a Dilbert collection and picking the mind of the PHB as it were.

My former coworker who wanted router stats in in bits AND bytes AND wanted them in per second, minute, and hour counts BEFORE any statistics were run on the output is popping into my head now.

Time poorly spent.

"I want these numbers easier to understand."
"But sir, our users understand the current numbers just fine."
"Yeah? What about new users, huh? You need to make this easier for the new users! And if we get new users after that, you'll have to make the numbers even EASIER to understand!"

[TheJusticar]

You didn't "lose" any dice. It's there beneath the new text in your screenshot:

and release notes and feedbacking will begin tomorrow.

Well it's tomorrow already I think it's a really bad, bad, bad idea to lay out the numbers like that. Seriously, if people don't understand what 1d4 or 2d6 is they should probably enroll in remedial elementary mathematics.

[Josh]

This is an insult not only to long standing players, but to new ones also. If you are that challenged with numbers I think games like this aren't for you. If you're new but payed attention in Mirs. Smith's math class in 6th grade you know how to multiply and don't need this baby fed to you.