Epic SoS Nerfed to +10 5d6/x3

[Baahb3]

OR better yet, make other weapons par up- DONT take away our pride and glory in acquiring EPIC items.

This idea of balancing other weapons UP to a mistake is not a good thing, ever.

The power creep has been getting worse and worse over the years. They release one thing, see the folly of their ways and instead of correcting the mistake by bringing the ONE thing that is out of balance, they bring up everything else to match it, bad philosophy in my mind as it makes all future items so much more difficult to design and balance.

IMO they finally got it right, there was one weapon that was just over the top, and they knocked it down a notch.

I have said it once and will repeat it here, sometimes you have to take a step back before making progress going forward.

[Elfvyra]

4d6+10/x4
=======
avg dmg: 24 x 4 = 96
max dmg: 34 x 4 = 136

5d6+10/x3
========
avg dmg: 27.5 x 3 = 82.5
max dmg: 40 x 3 = 120

difference:
=======
avg: -13.5 dmg
max: -16 dmg

Strength modification:
===============
30 str: -10 damage
40 str: -15 damage
50 str: -20 damage

Total difference:
===========
avg: -23.5 / -28.5 / -33.5 damage
max: -26 / -31 / -36 damage


Losing anywhere from 23-33 damage per swing on average (depending on your str) is a pretty big nerf.

Ok, that's on a crit of a non-fortified mob. How about non-crits, or the majority of your swings?

[Zaodan]

Ok, that's on a crit of a non-fortified mob. How about non-crits, or the majority of your swings?

4d6+10
vs
5d6+10

difference:
avg: +3
max: +6

Miss on 1 = 19 chances to hit.
Crit range: 15-20 with improved crit = 6 chances to crit.
13 to 6 ratio = 2 to 1 ratio of normal hits vs crits.

Therefore:
- you'll hit without crits twice, and with a crit once, per 3 swings.

Net damage:
+6 avg, -23 to -33 (depending on str) = total, final net of -17 to -27 loss of damage per swing on average.

As I said, a pretty big nerf.

[Baahb3]

Yes finally we get to go back to min2 after months of hard work and 80 dragon runs later, its lvl 20 only. but i guess i need to bring back out the ml 12 axe which is now better against anything with dr which was the sos's limitation. Can i somehow downgrade my weapon then and just use it to lvl i mean it has the same crit range as its regular version. Going to be stuck in shroud forever after all the hard work people put into epics. Can you nerf my tod rings and my mc from dq i think 10 seeker is too high make it 6 just like the bloodstone

That is the problem with GS weapons in the first place. The min lvl did not change as the weapon got more powerful, but if they changed anything with shroud weapons the uproar would be 10x worse than anything they have nerfed so far.

They changed transmuting so that it only bypassed metal DRs. Why? Because they did not want one weapon to work for EVERY creature/battle/situation in the entire game, 'one weapon to rule them all' was the montra back then with Min IIs. They changed it and now you see alot more melees using Lit IIs and other weapons.

Before this change you had that idea again. The only thing that people did not use the eSoS on was elite raids with DR bosses such as Shroud/ToD/VoD.

People gripe that STWF will limit choices, eSoS did that IMO, there was no choice if you wanted an elite THF, you had to have this weapon. Now, it is nice to have and is still better than alot against non DR foes, but it is not a necessity, we now have options.

[Chai]

You will not be able to do so, as the scroll alone is 1:1,900 from trash mobs. And unless you are soloing, every single person in there is competing with you.

I see this on the AH all the time. Cant be too rare.

Chai, we get it. You had a bad experience with a Dex based Fighter in PnP and you're still traumatized against effective characters to this day. Your constant strawmans and exaggerations prove nothing (1,000 point crits? Really?).

And yes, theres a paladin in my guild who would hit for more than 1k points on a smite crit with the old eSOS. Barbarians were x7 on a 19-20 with it. Thats a 143 point regular hit, buffed.

Regarding your continual PnP jabs you like to make: I used to DM and REF modules 9 months before release back in the day, and have a clear understanding of how situational this game is. You on the the other hand think its an all or nothing situation by continually saying you are either good or you suck. Who is the one exagerating?

Welcome to the gray area, please stay for a while, I think you will enjoy your visit.

Because if it isn't overpowered as is, and it's being gimped out, then what have you played for? The privilege of sucking?

See what I mean? You are calling 5d6 base damage x3 crit 18-20 sucking, and gimped out?

Like I stated, its the absolutists who are moaning over this. Your continual talk about being competent, or sucking, like its one way or the other, and all or nothing, only supports what I am saying. You make my point stronger by literally enforcing what I stated. So please, by all means, continue.

[SquelchHU]

I see this on the AH all the time. Cant be too rare.

Because people solo farm it. Point is, you'd spend about as much time JUST GETTING THE SCROLL as you would on 16 Shrouds. And then you need a Seal in your chest, a Shard in your chest, and the base item in your chest.

No, I used to DM modules 9 months before release back in the day, and have a clear understanding of how situational this game is. You on the the other hand think its an all or nothing situation by continually saying you are either good or you suck. Who is the one exagerating?

See what I mean? You are calling 5d6 base damage x3 crit 18-20 sucking?

Like I stated, its the absolutists who are moaning over this. Your continual talk about being competent, or sucking, nlike its one way or the other, only supports what I am saying. You make my point stronger by literally enforcing what I stated. So please, by all means, continue.

**** right I am. Losing a FULL HIT worth of damage on 15-20 is in no way compensated for by another 1d6. Losing a quarter of your damage in auto crit situations (the most common situation the weapon would be used in) is by no means compensated for by 1d6.

So yes, I do say it's gimped out, and I do mean it. And you can have post traumatic stress against optimizers all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this is an MMO, and that is simply the way things work here.

Zaodan posted the exact numbers, so thanks for that.

Also, lol at calling out a crit smite while originally describing it as a normal crit.

[Krag]

I see this on the AH all the time. Cant be too rare.

I have seen SoS scroll drops 3 times in 100+ VoNs completions. 100 freaking runs with no guarantee to pull the damned scroll is bitter. Not sure if they have not fixed the only viable way to get scrolls in the next update.

[Asketes]

Concur, but the post you quoted (I think) was the one where I agreed with A_D that they could give the sword a x4 multipler on a natural 20 with a confirm. This keeps the "flavor" of the sword to give those eye popping numbers, but it will only be on a 20 rather than a 15-20 (or 19-20 in the case of the barb).

I don't think that would be out of hand, nor would it break anything. Even monsters in autocrit would only get hit with x4 when a nat 20 attack roll was made.

i didn't quote anything

i was just thinking, at least its still a +10 and not, say, a +6 or something raunchy

[Chai]

**** right I am. Losing a FULL HIT worth of damage on 15-20 is in no way compensated for by another 1d6. Losing a quarter of your damage in auto crit situations (the most common situation the weapon would be used in) is by no means compensated for by 1d6.

Its not supposed to compensate. Its a NERF.

Its hardly gimped like you claim it is however. This is an absolutist point of view. There is a difference between optimizers and absolutists. Optimizers understand the situational nature of this game we play, while absolutists gravitate to the most powerful thing in the game and point and call others gimps for not doing the same. Your views on this issue are way too extreme to be merely an optimizer. While you have the right to express those views, I also have the right to express that I think its comical when you and other absolutists have a full on conniption fit before every single change is initiated. This negitive hype usually dies down a week or two after the full change goes live, and all the people who threatened to leave the game if it happened all stay and continue to moan about the next up and coming issue.

As I stated, please continue to post the absolutist point of view regarding DDO. You are supporting what I say about the situational nature of DnD and by proxy DDO every time you express your disdain over another new change in an absolutist fashion.

[KingOfCheese]

Here is an image of the updated epic SOS. They changed the appearance as well.

[Aspenor]

i didn't quote anything

i was just thinking, at least its still a +10 and not, say, a +6 or something raunchy

Agreed. The item is still "epic," just not quite as "epic," at least in DDO terms.

What I don't understand is why people think that the esos should be the single most dominant weapon for all targets, all the time. This has never been the flavor of DDO.

[kaelis]

Agreed. The item is still "epic," just not quite as "epic," at least in DDO terms.

What I don't understand is why people think that the esos should be the single most dominant weapon for all targets, all the time. This has never been the flavor of DDO.

This. It's still one of, if not the best 2 handed weapon for a slew of scenarios, it's just no longer a dps consideration for classes like monks, and rangers to be using over their own class fighting styles.

[Aaxeyu]

People seem to think that if something is nerfed, it becomes completely useless.
That is stupid tbh. Esos will still be by far the best THF weapon in a great many situations.

The nerf only means that it won't be the best weapon for TWF characters. And for that I am glad.

The weapon WAS overpowered, and it's still good. So just stop crying already.

[Aaxeyu]

This. It's still one of, if not the best 2 handed weapon for a slew of scenarios, it's just no longer a dps consideration for classes like monks, and rangers to be using over their own class fighting styles.

lol, +1 for saying what I said, before I said it!

[Chai]

I have seen SoS scroll drops 3 times in 100+ VoNs completions. 100 freaking runs with no guarantee to pull the damned scroll is bitter. Not sure if they have not fixed the only viable way to get scrolls in the next update.

These can be bought for 600k plat or so on Sarlona, on a failry regular basis.

[ArtosKincaid]

I still want one for my paladin. This may be due to the fact that I can bypass devil DR by putting silver in the red slot though.

I do think it's ****** that they put it out there like it was, then nerfed it down, but I also seriously doubt they'll change it no matter how much people complain.

[Krag]

These can be bought for 600k plat or so on Sarlona, on a failry regular basis.

As I said, there is a cheese way to farm scrolls. Now way someone who got the scroll just by completing epic vons would sell it for that few.

[Do'Urden]

• FACT: The Epic SoS now does comparable DPS to Tier II/III Greensteel (data presented several times earlier in this thread).
• FACT: The Epic SoS is ML:20 vs. Greensteel ML:12
• FACT: The Epic SoS should be and is MUCH harder to grind than a Tier III Greensteel weapon unless you have people passing you Shards & Seals (just as likely as someone passing you a Large Devil Scale in the Shroud). The item itself doesn't drop that often and rarely goes up for roll. Also don't forget the up to 60 dungeon / raid tokens required to slot the thing fully...also being nerfed into fragments in U5. As a data point, I've only had the opportunity to roll on the SoS shard one (1) time in over 60 ev6 runs. I know less than 10 people with the eSoS on Argo and this includes a large sample of power-gamers grinding for it on a daily basis.

If the new eSoS is what really-hard-to-grind-for Epic items should look like, then I'm guessing a serious nerf to Greensteel is also in the works.

[Gercho]

People seem to think that if something is nerfed, it becomes completely useless.
That is stupid tbh. Esos will still be by far the best THF weapon in a great many situations.

The nerf only means that it won't be the best weapon for TWF characters. And for that I am glad.

The weapon WAS overpowered, and it's still good. So just stop crying already.

I agree, besides, if you left the epic sos as it was, what the next epic two handed weapon would have to be? or they would have to be even more overpowered, or people will say, well, this is a joke, the new weapons are all useless, none is better than the epic SoS!!!

[Chai]

As I said, there is a cheese way to farm scrolls. Now way someone who got the scroll just by completing epic vons would sell it for that few.

Correct, but people are claiming that they are so rare, when they are not. They are common enough they they are on the AH for sale for small enough amounts of plat.