Epic SoS Nerfed to +10 5d6/x3

[Gercho]

Meh, the way I see it, the people bemoaning it will go to any non-logical (ie irrational) lengths to argue why this is wrong.

I'll offer the following:

- Balancing a weapon by making it "very rare" is terrible game design, unless you artificially limit the number of them. (For example, "max 5 per server drop, ever" - then it's only bad game design.)

- The weapon in question was not even "very rare" (or even very challenging to get). it was EASY as heck to get! FAR LESS work than a shroud weapon unless you already have a stockpile of larges, but then the comparison is biased.

- You didn't need shroud weapons to do this raid. In fact the power gamers were not using min IIs vs Velah, they were using holy or holyburst of greater dragon bane with icyburst with force.

- The nerf isn't THAT bad - it still is a very powerful weapon, more powerful than anything else in DPS. It's just no longer ridiculously so.

- Epic creatures and auto-crit: If you were having ANY issues killing an epic trash creature in auto-crit in more than 6 or so seconds, you and your group don't belong in epic quests. It's possible for epic trash you may have a better weapon than the SoS for when the stuff is auto-crittable - but this is a good thing! Having a single weapon be the absolutely best weapon for all possible scenarios wasn't good.

- They already nerfed min IIs because they were the best possible weapons for all scenarios for this same reason. And they were not nearly as powerful as this SoS. (I still think it was a mistake, and they should have ONLY nerfed min IIs instead of all transmuters, but whatever)

- The min level of the item plays no role as to how useful it is. This has been a trademark of DDO for a very long time, and it's a GOOD thing because it keeps old content worth running. The shroud is still considered an end game raid, and arguing that "no min lvl 12 item should be close to the SoS" is simply begging to have the shroud changed to level 18 and the shroud items to get a min lvl 18. It's not like they haven't nerfed the min lvl of shroud items before you know.

- People who didn't quit because of the w/p insane nerf which not only invalidated ***years*** of effort for people but ALSO crapload of builds (with it, the viability of dex-based builds went right out the window, as well as the dual-wielding barb) and which WALKED ALL OVER the D&D rules, aren't going to quit over this overall moderate nerf. PS: I am STILL upset about the w/p nerf. I'll forget the SoS nerf in four weeks time, tops.

- People may no longer run the von raid non-stop like crazy to have the most must-have weapon in the game. But this raid is fairly easy, and kinda fun, and still has a lot of other nice stuff, so it'll still get run a lot.

- I WILL agree that it is a really bad idea to release something into live that even in Lamannia is seen as incredibly overpowered, and then nerf it after lots of people have worked for said item.

It pretty much sums up all i think about the subject, so +1

[SquelchHU]

Actually, 24 larges is approximate 20 runs. 24 SPECIFIC larges is approximately 60+ or so runs. Have you forgotten the HUGE number of people who originally went "I'll never run the shroud enough times to craft anything, so I'm selling this large for X..." back when it was released? Heck, without multiple characters, you might as well forget shroud crafting, or you have to do the even more tedious and mind-numbing recalling before part 5 is over shtick, bringing your total number of runs up into the insane realm.

So now try running 60+ shrouds WITHOUT any characters in the raid being decked in green steel and compare it against the effort of running von1 and von2 for scrollies. Incidentally my last sos scroll came from the CR 12 spectators after von1. Also, von1 and 2 epic can be run without a cleric in what, 12 minutes or so?

As for the actual epic raid? Don't make me laugh, it's over in what, 10 mins as well? 15 tops if you're conservative with your dps to avoid lag? And a guild in Sarlona just finished it in THREE minutes.

VoN6's completion time is artificially, and greatly inflated by having to run all over the place in a level 10 quest prior.

And '24 specific larges is approximately 60 or so runs'. What the hell are you smoking?

60 Shrouds, 3 dual shard and 2 single shard. That's 96 larges, which is roughly consistent with 1.5 per run + a few non completion runs at the beginning when I thought recalling was a good idea. Hi Welcome.

And since seals and shards are BtA and scrolls are not bound guess what? You run that with multiple characters as well.

[Gercho]

VoN6's completion time is artificially, and greatly inflated by having to run all over the place in a level 10 quest prior.

And '24 specific larges is approximately 60 or so runs'. What the hell are you smoking?

60 Shrouds, 3 dual shard and 2 single shard. That's 96 larges, which is roughly consistent with 1.5 per run + a few non completion runs at the beginning when I thought recalling was a good idea. Hi Welcome.

And since seals and shards are BtA and scrolls are not bound guess what? You run that with multiple characters as well.

I have 22 shrouds completions and i m still missing 2 large scales and 3 large stones for my first double shard... have surplus chains arrows and bones though...

[Cyr]

I have 22 shrouds completions and i m still missing 2 large scales and 3 large stones for my first double shard... have surplus chains arrows and bones though...

Hi welcome.

Run it enough times and the numbers of each one you pull will even out. Some people get a surplus of scales and stones. The drop rates are not less for scales and stones, it is merely that the recipes require more of these so people end up with these being the crunch point.

[Chai]

VoN6's completion time is artificially, and greatly inflated by having to run all over the place in a level 10 quest prior.

You wouldnt happen to be referring to that one quest, that when I have nothing better to do, myself and a few friends plow, and then toss up an LFM for the eVON6 part when we are almost done with it, are you?

[Gercho]

Hi welcome.

Run it enough times and the numbers of each one you pull will even out. Some people get a surplus of scales and stones. The drop rates are not less for scales and stones, it is merely that the recipes require more of these so people end up with these being the crunch point.

in any case that shows that if you get 90 larges evened out between types, you wont be able to use all your larges, since you will need more scales and stones than the others...

Btw, the hi welcome is just a hidden way of saying, shut your mouth i m older than you at the game, so i know more, which even if its true, its highly unpolite...

[Ranmaru2]

As if you all didn't see this coming with the eSoS.

Reading through most of the thread and then watching an epic weapon get compared to a lvl 8 or 12 weapon and then asking for epic weapons to be improved, wouldn't you rather logically ask for these lvl 8/12 weapons to get changed than try to improve the epic weapons?

The cry to improve epic items MORE AND MORE AND MORE AND MORE makes no sense from a development standpoint (considering how epic is the current endgame) while leaving these level 12 weapons alone that are so much more powerful than the epic content. Why do you continuously cry "IMPROVE EPICS YET LEAVE MY SHROUD WEAPONS AND GEAR ALONE!" ?? This makes no sense.

Honestly, how are they supposed to IMPROVE epic gear and yet make newer higher level content to even break a smirk of amusement on your face if you're geared to the friggin brim?

The player base keeps asking for newer higher level content, but how do they make it balanced if we're going around critting for 200+ no matter what we use or have such ungodly stats that makes anything on hard/elite a cakewalk no matter what we're given?

[SquelchHU]

Lol. So the fail aside, what people are trying to say here is that they do in fact end up with a seal, a shard, a scroll, and a base item in less time than it takes to make a dual shard. And of course this is false, because even if seals and shards had a 100% drop rate you still have to get the one you want.

Which means it takes far longer to grind out an epic SoS than a dual shard GS. Which was my point.

[Cyr]

in any case that shows that if you get 90 larges evened out between types, you wont be able to use all your larges, since you will need more scales and stones than the others...

Btw, the hi welcome is just a hidden way of saying, shut your mouth i m older than you at the game, so i know more, which even if its true, its highly unpolite...

In this case it was a way of saying you have not run the quest enough times because you are commenting on something that is a statistical occurance that evens out over time.

At 22 runs*1.5 average larges/run = 33 larges on average. On average you would have ~33/6 = 5 Scales. The extra 3 we are calling horns which drop at a lower rate then the others now (thank goodness). Around that 20 run mark is where you expect to get enough larges to put together your next dual shard generally speaking.

[ArtosKincaid]

Lol. So the fail aside, what people are trying to say here is that they do in fact end up with a seal, a shard, a scroll, and a base item in less time than it takes to make a dual shard. And of course this is false, because even if seals and shards had a 100% drop rate you still have to get the one you want.

Which means it takes far longer to grind out an epic SoS than a dual shard GS. Which was my point.

Your point is significantly less meaningful when you take into consideration the number of Shroud runs that are pugged versus the number of epic VoN6 runs that are pugged.

I can log in and have a shroud group ready to go in less than an hour. I've only ever seen an epic dragon go up twice since it came out. I can also start running shroud at level 16 without too much complaint from people, with significantly less effort than it takes to get geared for epics without being a complete piker.

[SquelchHU]

Your point is significantly less meaningful when you take into consideration the number of Shroud runs that are pugged versus the number of epic VoN6 runs that are pugged.

I can log in and have a shroud group ready to go in less than an hour. I've only ever seen an epic dragon go up twice since it came out. I can also start running shroud at level 16 without too much complaint from people, with significantly less effort than it takes to get geared for epics without being a complete piker.

...That is precisely my point.

[Vanshilar]

This is just a random example. The point is that it's still a brutal weapon that every THF character will want to have.

Eh it looks like you didn't include fort nor DR, which is the reason to use min 2 over the other weapons. The proper comparison in that case would be the lightning 2 I think -- but the point still holds I think, the eSoS is going to be around 10-20% better than a lit 2 vs trash/Velah depending on your assumptions. Versus 50% fort 15 DR guys, the eSoS will still be better than the min 2, but not by much. You'll want a min 2 for hard/elite basically (where the DR goes up to 25 and 35, respectively).

Versus 50% fort (omitting the DR for now), the eSoS would be (using the numbers you gave):

(92.5 * 15.5 + 319.5 * 3.5)/20 = 127.6 damage per main swing


For the min 2 greataxe, it becomes:

(92.5 * 16 + 114.5 * 1.5 + 317.5 * 1.5)/20 = 106.4 damage per main swing

with the middle term being the damage that you do on a resisted crit (where magical effects still proc but the main damage isn't multiplied). Note that I think on a crit you didn't multiply the seeker damage by the crit multiplier or something; my understanding of the game mechanics is that the formula of the crit damage would be (based on the numbers you gave): (80.5+14)*3 + 12 + 22 = 317.5.

Anyway the difference is around 21 which means that a DR of less than 21 and you should use the eSoS; a DR of greater than 21 and you should use the min 2. However, this doesn't take into account whether or not you twitch; if you're just standing there auto-attacking (which is apparently what the developers intend for THF), then, considering that a glancing blow occurs 75% of the time and they hit 95% of the time (and the glancing formula is (regular damage + 30) * 0.3 ), then:

eSoS glancing damage (before DR):
(92.5 + 30) * 0.3 = 36.75 per glancing blow
=> 36.75 * 0.95 * 0.75 = 26.18 per swing

min2 glancing damage:
(80.5 + 30) * 0.3 = 33.15 per glancing blow
=> 33.15 * 0.95 * 0.75 = 23.62 per swing

So basically, before DR but with the 50% fort:
127.6 + 26.2 = 153.8 damage per swing for eSoS
106.4 + 23.6 = 140.0 damage per swing for min2

Now if you include DR, consider that DR affects all main hits (so 95% of the time) as well as all glancing blows (so 95% * 75% of the time), then 15 DR decreases the eSoS by 15*0.95 + 15*0.95*0.75 = 24.9 damage per swing for the eSoS, so with 15 DR it's a net of 128.9 damage per swing -- about 92% that of a min 2. Thus, you'll want to use a min 2.

Of course, min 2 weapons may be affected by acid resistance (which is not taken into account here, this assumed min 2 does full acid damage) decreasing the damage output of a min 2 compared with what's here. But at any rate, it looks like basically the eSoS will become roughly on par with min 2 for 50% fort 15 DR monsters. You'll still want it for a damage increase over lit 2 though.

Compare that with the current situation where you'd want an eSoS on pretty much everything with 25 DR or less, meaning that it's pretty much permanently in your weapon slot unless you'd doing elite runs (and how many people farm elite shroud?). The change to eSoS will make it so that the eSoS will have its niche (i.e. vs low-fort low-DR mobs like Velah) rather than overpowering all over THF weapons -- basically so that, like the THF weapon balance before the eSoS, end-game players need to grind out for multiple weapons to be able to adapt to different situations, rather than focusing on just one weapon.

[wuliman]

For those people saying that it isn't so bad, or the esos was overpowered, blah, blah, blah...how many of you actually have an Esos? How many of you have actually gone through the trouble to get one? 240+ ev6's here and only one SoS shard dropped for me...I have one sword to my name, and to some i'm lucky. How do you like seeing S$^# you've worked for get stripped away from you? The reason why i'm so fumed by this is simple: I went after the sword specifically for what it was able to do. I grinded, grinded, then grinded some more to attain it. I finally found a weapon i could use other than greensteel...man, that was a good day when i made the sword. Now they want to change it, to make up for they're lack of foresight and quality control. If they needed more time to test it, they should have taken the #$^%^#$ time, and come out with a consistant product. If they think its too powerful, fine...i'm more than capable of rolling with the punches. Turbine, or whomever is making these changes...time to shape up and learn from your mistakes. This is your job, this is what you're payed for...if you need time to make proper tests, then take it. I, as well as many others, are tired of working towards an item you set up, just to have the rug pulled from under us with nothing more than, "Whoops, sorry...to bad for you". Maybe most of you are fine with table scraps, but there are quite a few of us who are not.

As a side note: If you guys at turbine are dead set on this change to the epic sos...at least give those who have worked for the sword a small charity...Allow swords made before the change was annouced to be grandfathered in to the next mod, clean and un-altered...it not our fault you screwed up. At least pretend that our effort, time and mothly dues might mean something.

[Krag]

As a side note: If you guys at turbine are dead set on this change to the epic sos...at least give those who have worked for the sword a small charity...Allow swords made before the change was annouced to be grandfathered in to the next mod, clean and un-altered...it not our fault you screwed up. At least pretend that our effort, time and mothly dues might mean something.

/not signed
Simply because it's not fair to all those who were not lucky enough to pull damned shard. I am against nerf but IF it's doomed to happen, it should be retroactive.

[Cetus]

For those people saying that it isn't so bad, or the esos was overpowered, blah, blah, blah...how many of you actually have an Esos? How many of you have actually gone through the trouble to get one? 240+ ev6's here and only one SoS shard dropped for me...I have one sword to my name, and to some i'm lucky. How do you like seeing S$^# you've worked for get stripped away from you? The reason why i'm so fumed by this is simple: I went after the sword specifically for what it was able to do. I grinded, grinded, then grinded some more to attain it. I finally found a weapon i could use other than greensteel...man, that was a good day when i made the sword. Now they want to change it, to make up for they're lack of foresight and quality control. If they needed more time to test it, they should have taken the #$^%^#$ time, and come out with a consistant product. If they think its too powerful, fine...i'm more than capable of rolling with the punches. Turbine, or whomever is making these changes...time to shape up and learn from your mistakes. This is your job, this is what you're payed for...if you need time to make proper tests, then take it. I, as well as many others, are tired of working towards an item you set up, just to have the rug pulled from under us with nothing more than, "Whoops, sorry...to bad for you". Maybe most of you are fine with table scraps, but there are quite a few of us who are not.

As a side note: If you guys at turbine are dead set on this change to the epic sos...at least give those who have worked for the sword a small charity...Allow swords made before the change was annouced to be grandfathered in to the next mod, clean and un-altered...it not our fault you screwed up. At least pretend that our effort, time and mothly dues might mean something.

That is said better than any other poster on the forums.

/signed, stamped, notarized


Read this devs, and hopefully it gets through somewhere.

[wuliman]

Right there...another person who doesn't have it has something to say about it. Of course you don't care if the change is retroactive...you can't lose something you don't have. The fact you don't have one is not my concern, no offense osmand...i've played with you and have my respect. This is about preserving what has already been attained.

[Zion_Halcyon]

For those people saying that it isn't so bad, or the esos was overpowered, blah, blah, blah...how many of you actually have an Esos? How many of you have actually gone through the trouble to get one? 240+ ev6's here and only one SoS shard dropped for me...I have one sword to my name, and to some i'm lucky. How do you like seeing S$^# you've worked for get stripped away from you? The reason why i'm so fumed by this is simple: I went after the sword specifically for what it was able to do. I grinded, grinded, then grinded some more to attain it. I finally found a weapon i could use other than greensteel...man, that was a good day when i made the sword. Now they want to change it, to make up for they're lack of foresight and quality control. If they needed more time to test it, they should have taken the #$^%^#$ time, and come out with a consistant product. If they think its too powerful, fine...i'm more than capable of rolling with the punches. Turbine, or whomever is making these changes...time to shape up and learn from your mistakes. This is your job, this is what you're payed for...if you need time to make proper tests, then take it. I, as well as many others, are tired of working towards an item you set up, just to have the rug pulled from under us with nothing more than, "Whoops, sorry...to bad for you". Maybe most of you are fine with table scraps, but there are quite a few of us who are not.

As a side note: If you guys at turbine are dead set on this change to the epic sos...at least give those who have worked for the sword a small charity...Allow swords made before the change was annouced to be grandfathered in to the next mod, clean and un-altered...it not our fault you screwed up. At least pretend that our effort, time and mothly dues might mean something.

On the one hand, I get it.

On the other hand, every MMO has this disclaimer on it : "Gameplay May Change During Online Play"

It means no matter what it is, at any time, it can change, including the ESoS. If you think about it, not just your ESoS but even spending time in a virtual world is a time investment, and thus what you then are arguing is that your time is more important than someone elses time, because you spent all your time working towards one thing, instead of just spreading your time around on various things. It is there the argument falls apart because we are all just players here, and no matter how we overinflate ourselves, no person's time is worth more than any other person's time, and it is in the end you who chose to spend your time how you did, even after the "Gameplay May Change During Online Play" disclaimer that flashes upon install, that most gamers seem to ignore.

Believe me, I feel your pain of working towards a goal, only to have it rendered semi-pointless. But going into it, you should be prepared for that - this is an MMO after all, and things change constantly. Despite all the E_Rage here, no one is owed anything. You are renting time, and how you choose to spend it is up to you. And if all you focus on is the end goal, then you miss out on the nostalgia of the journey.

Anyway, not trying to rile you up even more, just being blunt about it. For me and my tastes, I am still going to grind for an ESoS when I hit 20, because it seems like even with the nerf, it is still a good weapon to have, even if it isn't "the best".

And before you go on about not knowing about time investment, I can counter with SWG and Mandalorian Armor, and Combat Upgrade/NGE. Just because it is a different MMO doesn't mean I don't know about investing time in an ultimate goal, and then watching that thing become cheapened somehow.

[wuliman]

I appreciate your feedback brother, well put and played. I just had to say something as a fellow member of this gaming community and go down with a fight. In 4 years i've only written a handfull of things on the forums...i had to voice my opinion instead of sitting idly by without so much as a word. Thx, again.

[Aaxeyu]

For those people saying that it isn't so bad, or the esos was overpowered, blah, blah, blah...how many of you actually have an Esos? How many of you have actually gone through the trouble to get one? 240+ ev6's here and only one SoS shard dropped for me...I have one sword to my name, and to some i'm lucky. How do you like seeing S$^# you've worked for get stripped away from you? The reason why i'm so fumed by this is simple: I went after the sword specifically for what it was able to do. I grinded, grinded, then grinded some more to attain it. I finally found a weapon i could use other than greensteel...man, that was a good day when i made the sword. Now they want to change it, to make up for they're lack of foresight and quality control. If they needed more time to test it, they should have taken the #$^%^#$ time, and come out with a consistant product. If they think its too powerful, fine...i'm more than capable of rolling with the punches. Turbine, or whomever is making these changes...time to shape up and learn from your mistakes. This is your job, this is what you're payed for...if you need time to make proper tests, then take it. I, as well as many others, are tired of working towards an item you set up, just to have the rug pulled from under us with nothing more than, "Whoops, sorry...to bad for you". Maybe most of you are fine with table scraps, but there are quite a few of us who are not.

As a side note: If you guys at turbine are dead set on this change to the epic sos...at least give those who have worked for the sword a small charity...Allow swords made before the change was annouced to be grandfathered in to the next mod, clean and un-altered...it not our fault you screwed up. At least pretend that our effort, time and mothly dues might mean something.

You are forgetting that the new version isn't useless. You would still need to have it for max DPS in plenty of situations. Any respectable THF should still do all he can to obtain the weapon.
It's not like the sword is being removed from the game completely.

It sucks to have ones shinies become less shiny, but you have to stop being so selfish and realise that it's for the greater good.

I might not have had an Epic SoS, but I had plenty of WoPs when they got nerfed so I know the feeling. Although I never complained about that change, as it was also for the greater good. IE making the game better.

[Cetus]

You are forgetting that the new version isn't useless. You would still need to have it for max DPS in plenty of situations. Any respectable THF should still do all he can to obtain the weapon.
It's not like the sword is being removed from the game completely.

It sucks to have ones shinies become less shiny, but you have to stop being so selfish and realise that it's for the greater good.

I might not have had an Epic SoS, but I had plenty of WoPs when they got nerfed so I know the feeling. Although I never complained about that change, as it was also for the greater good. IE making the game better.

Greater good? Using these trite statements say nothing.

The swords main source of ower WAS the crit multiplier. Now look at the difference between the non-epic version and the epic version. 5 extra dmg and to hit and an increase to 5d6 dmg.