Racial Reincarnation

[Alavatar]

Putting this out there.

I would like the ability to change from one race to another WITHOUT True Resurrecting. Call it an Improved Resurrection.

I really don't have a good argument as to why this would be good for the game; nor can I think of a good reason why it shouldn't be an option.

To be honest, I want it because I have characters I don't play any more that I believe would be more fun to me as a different race and I don't want to reroll the characters; I would start playing them again. And I would probably spend money on Lesser Reincarnations on top of any Racial (Improved) Reincarnations I purchased to fix a few class selections while I was at it.

[Kistilan]

No.

This is to FOTM and Easy. My argument.

Recommendation: Level your characters you want to play and TR into the race you realized you wanted to play more.

[Alavatar]

No.

This is to FOTM and Easy. My argument.

Recommendation: Level your characters you want to play and TR into the race you realized you wanted to play more.

That's similar to what you said about Reincarnations. Only we called it Respec and you called it something else that I can't remember. Yet, it has proven to not be game-breaking. Racial Reincarnations would have roughly the same or less impact I would wager.

[Samadhi]

That's similar to what you said about Reincarnations. Only we called it Respec and you called it something else that I can't remember. Yet, it has proven to not be game-breaking. Racial Reincarnations would have roughly the same or less impact I would wager.

I agree that a racial reincarnation can hardly be called game-breaking. However, from RP perspective, the racial change makes far less sense. I *could* get behind this if and only if alignment changes were instituted first, seeing as how changing alignment has been a large part of the OG game for ages.


Out of curiosity, what change do you specifically have in mind for your toons? Although there are slight benefits here and there, I typically consider race to primarily be a flavor choice.

[Rav'n]

I'd venture to say you'd see a lot less TR-ing if they offered a Racial Reincarnation. You'd see less Dorf, Elf and Humans and more "Bots" at the upper end on Argo. Which is fine by me... the less Fake Elves the better!

[Alavatar]

I agree that a racial reincarnation can hardly be called game-breaking. However, from RP perspective, the racial change makes far less sense. I *could* get behind this if and only if alignment changes were instituted first, seeing as how changing alignment has been a large part of the OG game for ages.

Agreed. Alignment changing mechanics have been at the very least discussed if by Turbine and mentioned in interviews so I don't doubt that an Alignment shift item is on it's way.

Out of curiosity, what change do you specifically have in mind for your toons? Although there are slight benefits here and there, I typically consider race to primarily be a flavor choice.

I would change my Drow and Dwarves to WF. The Drow because he is too squishy and the Dwarves because I don't like the way Dwarves look anymore. I'm not going to lie, though, the second reason for changing is because of the special perks WF get, such as they're PA enhancements and innate immunities. I've had those characters for years (one for almost 4 years) and I don't want to just delete and reroll; nor do I want to spend the time to TR.

[Samadhi]

I would change my Drow and Dwarves to WF.

Don't do it!! The balancing bat has swung around many times; and the WF's moment in the sun is almost past by my calculations.

[Kistilan]

That's similar to what you said about Reincarnations. Only we called it Respec and you called it something else that I can't remember. Yet, it has proven to not be game-breaking. Racial Reincarnations would have roughly the same or less impact I would wager.

I called it Reincarnation (along with Brenna). We coined the system you use and, FWIW, I was behind Reincarnation the whole way. I leaned anti-respec because there were too many pro-respec posters that were simply brow-beating and fallacy-flaunting their way into My Way or the High Way Arguments.

Respec, no. Reincarnation, as Turbine did it, yep. It fit my worries and fears.

And it seems some of you cannot get over the fact that I backed this and was behind the general functionality of the system you were given as your Respec. Like it or not, Sableshadow (Brenna) and I gave a lot of the "conditions" currently used in the True Reincarnation System. I also like how they took some of the things you guys wanted and implemented it into the Lesser/Greater. Furthermore, the way the entire system was designed allowed for a seemingly infinite negation of Endgame Critical Mass, which was my ultimate concern for the game (and Turbine's longevity). It's seemingly because eventually Reincarnation won't be enough to deter The Empty Harbor Concept, but when combined with New Races and New Classes released periodically as well as new feat systems, the Empty Harbor Concept is a good 6-8 years away from a secondary realization. I'm sure Turbine's new business model can adjust that fear later.

Lastly, I want to encourage the users that are still mad that I was in The Great Respec Wars and adamantly behind No Respec (but did support and co-coin The Reincarnation System) to openly flame me and throw more negative rep my way. Go ahead. I opened up the green bar for your visual stimulation. Go ahead.

[Kistilan]

I'd venture to say you'd see a lot less TR-ing if they offered a Racial Reincarnation. You'd see less Dorf, Elf and Humans and more "Bots" at the upper end on Argo. Which is fine by me... the less Fake Elves the better!

This is why Racial Reincarnation is a bad idea. If it comes without the relevelling.... it accelerates The Empty Harbor Concept/Fear and brings about the revelation of Endgame: Critical Mass.

Thank you for that excellent point, Rav'n. I'm in no way trying to keep the player down, but the thing that is best for the game is not racial respec with no penalties/relevelling.

[Alavatar]

I called it Reincarnation (along with Brenna). We coined the system you use and, FWIW, I was behind Reincarnation the whole way. I leaned anti-respec because there were too many pro-respec posters that were simply brow-beating and fallacy-flaunting their way into My Way or the High Way Arguments.

Respec, no. Reincarnation, as Turbine did it, yep. It fit my worries and fears.

And it seems some of you cannot get over the fact that I backed this and was behind the general functionality of the system you were given as your Respec. Like it or not, Sableshadow (Brenna) and I gave a lot of the "conditions" currently used in the True Reincarnation System. I also like how they took some of the things you guys wanted and implemented it into the Lesser/Greater. Furthermore, the way the entire system was designed allowed for a seemingly infinite negation of Endgame Critical Mass, which was my ultimate concern for the game (and Turbine's longevity). It's seemingly because eventually Reincarnation won't be enough to deter The Empty Harbor Concept, but when combined with New Races and New Classes released periodically as well as new feat systems, the Empty Harbor Concept is a good 6-8 years away from a secondary realization. I'm sure Turbine's new business model can adjust that fear later.

That's not how I remember the discussions. I think you are taking credit for something that you shouldn't. Turbine took data from many players on the subject; you and SableShadow may have added to the feedback, but don't believe that it was your idea. That is a bit conceeded.

Oh, and you weren't against a racial reincarnation/respec (or adding it to a respec) in this post. As long as it cost something it seems.

P.S. It was actually Dirac's idea (#2 on the bottom) that was implemented for TR for the most part.

This is why Racial Reincarnation is a bad idea. If it comes without the relevelling.... it accelerates The Empty Harbor Concept/Fear and brings about the revelation of Endgame: Critical Mass.

Thank you for that excellent point, Rav'n. I'm in no way trying to keep the player down, but the thing that is best for the game is not racial respec with no penalties/relevelling.

Me thinks you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The penalties would be similar to a reincarnation in that (a) it would cost TP and (b) would have a week or longer timer.

I also believe your Empty Harbor Theory is a fear that is unfounded. Korthos and the Harbor constantly have multiple instances going as opposed to when we started the Respec debate where the Harbor rarely had more than one due primarily to the FTP model, not because of TR. And they have been that way for the past 9 months.

Besides, I don't know about you, but nearly every experienced player I know rarely, if ever, groups below L6 when running Korthos, Harbor, and Marketplace quests. It's easier to just purchase a hireling healer and take off then put up with PUGs, or better to join a guild power leveling group in the case of TR. I know I haven't joined a PUG pre-L6 in the past year and a half.

[Samadhi]

...
Besides, I don't know about you, but nearly every experienced player I know rarely, if ever, groups below L6 ...

More like 8 or 9, at best, since the addition of dungeon scaling and the loss of XP if some PUG comes in and dies.

[Kistilan]

I checked your links. They're cherry-picked and inaccurately represent the entire dynamics of my stance during that 5,000+ post thread. Noticeably, you only went the first 111 deep as far as I can tell.

Reincarnation (the posts I'm referring to) are somewhere between 200 and 1,200.

Your memory is picky and vague. I'm not sure why you're interested in my post here, unless you're currently into giving me negative rep for my stances regarding EASY buttons.

My theory about The Empty Harbor was coming true prior to mod9 and Reincarnation Implementation. I think if one or the other hadn't been done (F2P or Reincarnation or both), the Empty Harbor we were seeing in late 2008 and all of 2009 would be much more empty. You're looking at it in, "It didn't happen, therefore you are wrong." Theories/Hypothesis change because of direct action to effect the Theory/Hypothesis. In this case, the test subject received two treatments that altered the environ that was producing a thinning harbor. Maybe you can't recall what the harbor looked like all the time because you were too busy in The Vale, but I assure you Argonnessen and Khyber's harbors were... thinly-clad with live players and it was noticeable to those who played the harbor every day.

Korthos: First month, yep -- huge. Korthos after NPE, before mod9 -- dwindled exponentially.

I'm not saying I can't do quests solo on levelling characters (I did many time and piked people for fun), but I actually enjoyed meeting the new players, talking to them, and teaching them some basic skills to do the community and that gamer a service.

So you now know an experienced player that does not typically run all content thru L6 or thru L9 as a soloist or soloist w/hireling. I'm merely one, but I know there are others like me. Just because we can't be friends doesn't mean we don't exist.\

Back on topic: Just neg rep me instead of trying to discredit me. That thread has enough proof for any argument if you link to a cherry-picking post. I bet you could prove that I eat babies and drink urine with the plethora of posts in that thread by only quoting that thread. Where do you think my padded post count comes from? *points to that thread*

For the record, the $5 recommendation for the change was in additon to someone paying for respec ala premium cost (monies). Respec had to cost so it wasn't an easy button. It now has a cost and the Full Respec has a huge drawback: relevelling, but as a stronger version of yourself +2 stat points at the first 2 Reincarnations plus Past Life Feats. In no way did I ever say, "Yeah offer the sex or race change for $5, done deal." I'd sooner suggest you do that with alignment because the hearts of people change, but unless you got a lot of money, your race and gender generally do not.

The final days with the Shroud as king and reincarnation and f2p not existing were certainly much more bleak than you're recalling: The Empty Harbor was happening (and eventually would have met an imbalance with Endgame Critical Mass/Quit).

If you must, just neg rep me. I don't feel like rehashing the entire statement that I made over and over again in a concise and logical parameter. There was nothing far-fetched or too unbelieveable about the Theory/Hypothesis. Regendering and Reracialing is not true to D&D, or any other game really. Yeah, they charge for the regendering in WoW, but I don't think they allow race change. Neither has any other mainstream MMORPG that I know of: therefore, no.

That's not how I remember the discussions. I think you are taking credit for something that you shouldn't. Turbine took data from many players on the subject; you and SableShadow may have added to the feedback, but don't believe that it was your idea. That is a bit conceeded.

Oh, and you weren't against a racial reincarnation/respec (or adding it to a respec) in this post. As long as it cost something it seems.

P.S. It was actually Dirac's idea (#2 on the bottom) that was implemented for TR for the most part.



Me thinks you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The penalties would be similar to a reincarnation in that (a) it would cost TP and (b) would have a week or longer timer.

I also believe your Empty Harbor Theory is a fear that is unfounded. Korthos and the Harbor constantly have multiple instances going as opposed to when we started the Respec debate where the Harbor rarely had more than one due primarily to the FTP model, not because of TR. And they have been that way for the past 9 months.

Besides, I don't know about you, but nearly every experienced player I know rarely, if ever, groups below L6 when running Korthos, Harbor, and Marketplace quests. It's easier to just purchase a hireling healer and take off then put up with PUGs, or better to join a guild power leveling group in the case of TR. I know I haven't joined a PUG pre-L6 in the past year and a half.

[Alavatar]

I'm just going to point out that I don't have enough REP to give negative rep. I lurk more than post.

Not trying to discredit, just pointing out that you shouldn't be so conceded as to believe the system was your idea. Turbine took feedback from the community and put in there own stuff as well. That's all there is to it.

As for cherry-picking posts: I admit that I didn't go back and read the entire thread, but (a) most people's initial honest reaction was in the first 200 posts (of which Dirac's idea was after your initial post which you later quoted and basically said "I like this, and also add +500% xp gain) and (b) at the end of the thread people were admitting to "adding posts to fuel the flames" in the middle of the thread, you among them (and a host of others on both sides) so the middle 30-50 pages were just heated flaming that mainly got moderated which led to a lot of context being lost. And page 50-110 were people attempting to argue with Quenefel, Branmakmuffin, Fenrissulven, and a few others that were extremely obstinate and unable to acknowledge a point much less participate in a debate.

Around page 110 there is some good discussion, then it devolved again when this character "sjwalker" started posting his nonsense and insulting everyone, which nearly got the thread closed. For the next 30 or so pages there is a lot of "arguing with the fool" (as I call it) and "forum judo" (as SableShadow calls it) with not much meat other than rehashing what was already discussed in the first 200 posts. Then you got more into the thread (slow period at work?) where you basically said "NO FCR!" over and over again with people offering opposing arguments to which you responded "NO FCR", but with different words. And occasionally mention Reincarnation and/or a partial respec.

Then, around page 150 or so, LeslieWest_GuitarGod entered the fray and arguments were repeated from the first 50 pages. Again.

And then there was another 116 pages to the thread.

Anyways...

What was I saying?

Oh yeah, "Racial Reincarnation would be a nice feature!"