Buff Manyshot!

[Braegan]

Ok well, I am having fun with the title and perhaps timing of this post...but this is a serious suggestion that I've been thinking over for the last few weeks (I guess I was just motivated to post it today ).

Range DPS is really good when manyshot it active, when its not range DPS is really meh. So I was thinking of ways to increase the time an archer is using manyshot without it becoming overpowered. I should start by saying I invisioned this implemented as perhaps a T3 AA and perhaps DWS enhancement (so this would only apply to 18+ lvl characters and those that are "archer" builds).

So far I've come up with:

A) A decreased cool-down for many shot

B) An Improved Manyshot, which would act as a second usage of Manyshot on its own timer

C) Removing Manyshot as a timer and re-introduce it as a boost (i.e. you start with static 5 uses per rest, enhancements and gear can boost total number of uses.)

Thoughts?

[Shru]

In light of the proposed changes to the melee dps system, I think it'd be fitting to remove manyshot as an active feat and turn it into a toggleable combat stance with a passive % boost to double strike chance. This turns it into more into a substantial boost to sustained ranged dps, the new power attack for ranged characters if you will.

The new manyshot could look like a 25%/40%/55% to doublestrike with a bow and -4/-6/-8 to hit, for +6/+11+16 BAB respectively. The 20/40/55% progression puts it somewhat on par with the total boost Manyshot currently offers to the # of attacks/minute, just extrapolated over time. Something like 30/45/60% or higher would start being an actual buff to dps, and might give range at least some credability in sustainable dps, if making it a little less versatile due to the loss of burst damage.

I realise many people won't like this idea, as it completely ruins manyshot for those who don't intend to use a bow as a primary weapon (tempests III's, tempest I splashes, etc.), and it also ruins the true archer's ability for "burst damage", but if adressed right (meaning someone actually crunches the numbers to formulate the proper bonuses) it could be the boon archers need to be considered for the ever popular role of a truely sustainable dpser.

[DoctorWhofan]

no...just because it would make PvP some much rougher for WF sorcerers...


no, wait...

[tomfar72]

no...just because it would make PvP some much rougher for WF sorcerers...


no, wait...

It's all fun and games until a WF Sorc gets shot in the eye...

[Stormwine]

no...just because it would make PvP some much rougher for WF sorcerers...


no, wait...

Oh man I would give you rep for this but I already gave you rep earlier today.

[arminius]

Isn't Buff Manyshot a porn star's name?

If not, it should be.

[DoctorWhofan]

Isn't Buff Manyshot a porn star's name?

If not, it should be.

DARNIT ALL!!! too many hugs today!

[Alanim]

Maybe a Enhancement that has a requirement of manyshot, all classes can get it?

Tier 1 - 1 AP. Min level 6
Manyshot cooldown timer reduced by 10 seconds

Tier 2 - 2 AP. Min level 12
Manyshot cooldown timer reduced by 10 additional seconds, for a total of 20 seconds

Tier 3 - 3 AP. Min level 18
Manyshot cooldown timer reduced by 15 additional seconds, for a total of 35 seconds

So, with tier 3, lets see... 120 - 20 - 35 = 65 second cooldown(timer starts when manyshot is started, so those 20 seconds don't count)

That or something that "buffs" the manyshot timer, by increasing it 3-5 seconds per rank, with a total of 9-15 seconds increase could also work.

[Stormwine]

Isn't Buff Manyshot a porn star's name?

If not, it should be.

Shhh People dont know I play this game!

[Alanim]

Also, maybe if there was loot that increased the manyshot timer by 2-3 seconds, that'd be pretty nice. If the deepwood sniper ToD set gave that, I'd get it.

[jcTharin]

Isn't Buff Manyshot a porn star's name?

If not, it should be.

this is one of the best days on the forum ever!

your awesome

[BLAKROC]

It's all fun and games until a WF Sorc gets shot in the eye...

aww see what happens when you play with sharp stick, wf get eye poked out ...

[Symar-FangofLloth]

this is one of the best days on the forum ever!

your awesome

FTFY

[Ystradmynach]

That's what she said.

Anyway, Manyshot isn't the problem, it is already one of the most powerful feats out there. It is the time period when manyshot isn't active that needs to be buffed. Consider that other ranged weapons don't even get manyshot. If manyshot was stronger it would make other ranged attacks even more useless by comparison.

[jingseng]

That's what she said.

Anyway, Manyshot isn't the problem, it is already one of the most powerful feats out there. It is the time period when manyshot isn't active that needs to be buffed. Consider that other ranged weapons don't even get manyshot. If manyshot was stronger it would make other ranged attacks even more useless by comparison.

The difference is, there are, as near as i can tell, far more players who specialize in many-shottable ranged attacks than other forms of ranged attacks - i mean, honestly, what else is there? I've yet to hear about wind stance monks complaining about shuriken specialty needing love... because i'm pretty sure there just aren't any.

The bare truth is most other forms of ranged attacks only have limited use anyway... and you don't have an entire class/class branch built on them (with the possible exception of Drow wind-monk). You don't have, for example, a fighter PrE based on throwing hammers, or a barb enhancement and feat series based on throwing axes.

Because these things are ridiculous.

So why is it that the lack of these ridiculous things should hold back many shot play style?

As for the other suggestions in this thread, by and large I have no opinion... and while I do hate the cooldown on manyshot, I don't think it should be precipitously reduced.

As an alternative, i would suggest a wider cone/cylinder through which Improved Precise shot acts.

IPS is, in many ways, a full time many-shot (toggleable, btw, something I didn't realize for far too many levels). Consider:

Many shot: firing multiple arrows at a single target
IPS: Firing a single arrow at multiple targets.

The net effect of IPS, when you properly line up mobs, is the same as if you were able to fire non-pierce through shots at each target in line individually. With two targets, you have essentially, doubled your average rate of fire - the same as you would, in effect, with a 2-arrow many shot.

The problem stems from the line-up: it's ironically imprecise. This is caused by several factors, notoriously the size of the targets (notably, disparity in size of targets), angle of view (regardless of where you are, in fact, aiming), and simple finicky-ness.

However, the ability to proc effects from imbued arrows onto multiple targets, imho, out weighs the ability to proc the effect on the same target multiple times (such as slayer, or phantasmal killer).

By enlarging the area through which IPS works, rangers will gain a contextual increase in DPS, have more tactical/active play, and be even more devastating when using many shot.

[Chai]

If rangers get a chance to double strike with a bow we are all set. Even a 50% chance to double shot on each shot would be a 1.5x DPS increase with archery when manyshot is on cooldown timer. Every other shot firing 2 arrows instead of one would put us fairly close to melee DPS, after the nerf.

Oops did I say nerf, I meant rebalance.

*cough nerf cough....

[Ystradmynach]

The difference is, there are, as near as i can tell, far more players who specialize in many-shottable ranged attacks than other forms of ranged attacks - i mean, honestly, what else is there? I've yet to hear about wind stance monks complaining about shuriken specialty needing love... because i'm pretty sure there just aren't any.

The bare truth is most other forms of ranged attacks only have limited use anyway... and you don't have an entire class/class branch built on them (with the possible exception of Drow wind-monk). You don't have, for example, a fighter PrE based on throwing hammers, or a barb enhancement and feat series based on throwing axes.

Because these things are ridiculous.

Just because the current state of the game doesn't really support viable non-archery ranged builds doesn't mean that isn't an intended goal of the designers. With update 5 we will see the brutal throw feat and automatic repeating crossbow proficiency for mechanics, as well as a fix for greensteel throwing weapons. We also have a PrE for all ranged weapons with the deepwood sniper, it just has to be finished, and aside from drow, halflings also have a enhancement line for improving thrown weapons.

Anyway, it is not that people don't want to be experts in other ranged weapons, it is just that the damage isn't there yet. Improvements to precise shot as you mentioned later would be a step in the right direction and is definitely something I would support, but I think manyshot is fine as it is.

[uhgungawa]

Oh man I would give you rep for this but I already gave you rep earlier today.

Got you covered

[wolfy42]

Manyshot is already causing serious problems to ranged damage. Increasing how useful manyshot is would just thrash everything even more.

Manyshot is broken in DDO as it does not have the penalty to hit you normally would have with extra arrows and combat works differently in DDO then it did in D&D.

Basically ranged with manyshot is incredible and without it......it blows.

Slayer arrows help a bit now and the ranger capstone boost helps a bit as well, but still....when manyshot is active you do 4x the damage!! How can you make base ranged damage competative at all when you can multiply it by 4 for 20 seconds every so often?

The solution has always been to alter how manyshot works. It should have been done long ago in my opinion.

There are tons of ways to alter it. Make it a stance like power attack that is on a toggle. Make it a stance that breaks on movement. Make it a permanent ability that is always in effect. Or increase the duration and add enhancements that can increase it even more (eventually giving you something like the ability to be in manyshot 75% of the time).

Meanwhile the damage difference between having manyshot going and not should never be more then 2x base damage. Power attack even for a WF adds like 10% more damage...20% more at max. Manyshot adds 300% more damage. Thats just crazy and makes balancing ranged impossible.

I'd make Manyshot fire 2 arrows with an increase in duration as you get a higher BAB and keep everything else the same as it is right now. Add in AA/Ranger enhancements that boost the duration and thats it.

Initial manyshot lasts 20 seconds with a cooldown of 120 seconds but increases by 5 seconds per BAB point over 4. That gives a max duration at 20 BAB of 100 seconds and a down time of 20 seconds till the next useage of manyshot. Include 2 enhancements that boost manyshots duration by 10 seconds (costing 2 and 4 ap) allowing you to eventually have a full 120 seconds of manyshot (basically 100% manyshot all the time).

That would be a good start to revamping ranged combat. After manyshot was "balanced" a bit you could look into other changes to ranged combat all together (such as base attack speed at low BAB's etc).

End game average DPS would actually go up a bit (since 100% of 2x base DPS is higher then 18% of 4x DPS and 82% of 1x dps) but short duration damage bursts would drop by 50%.

This could allow for a flat increase to base ranged attack speed which would be most noticable at low levels (meaning early ranged combat which is at its weakest right now would be increased). This could perhaps be implemented by increasing the effect of rapid shot or even giving a new feat, improved rapid shot.

[Braegan]

no...just because it would make PvP some much rougher for WF sorcerers...


no, wait...

It wouldn't make it rougher for WF sorcs per se as it could be less time for the WF sorc to wait for the AA to come off MS timer and pwn him again. You see...it's a mercy kill.