Changes, the future of DDO...and should I be afraid to make a roll new character?

[IronClan]

I know EXACTLY what it means;

In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills," and grab the most loot, no matter how deleterious their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general.

Exactly not sure what Squelch thinks it means...

[Krag]

It pretty much comes down to the question... do you play DDO to have fun or to win?

In other MMO's they may change abilities, spells, items, etc, but the time frame is long enough between 'nerfs' to where people can adjust their characters to the new powergamer build. In DDO they are adding content and making game updates fast enough to where the community is not sure where the powergamer builds lie. Thus the feelings of 'why make a new character if its just going to get nerfed'.

Amazingly if you play to have fun you scrap the non-fun toons and make new toons no matter what happens. Game updates dont interfere with your fun. Its only when you play 'to win', or have the notion that its only fun if you are efficient, that this model of game updates effects your characters. Should Turbine have something for you as well, absolutely, but dont think that the game itself should change to make you happy just as I dont care if the game changes to make me happy.

What do you get your fun from? If it was only from social interactions, you could just as well play Hello Kitty, WoW and have fun. DDO is a game about killing monsters, exploring dungeons, developing your character and... killing monsters. Game updates interfere with both your character development and your killing capabilities. Just a simple 13% nerf neglects months if not years of grind to improve your character.

When we throw teamplay into equation, the issue becomes even more entertaining. Whoops, sorry, you can't tank Horoth as you used to, because your dps is not sufficient to hold aggro. Sorry, your barbarian can't join - we need DPS.

The bottom line is once its no longer fun to play, simply dont play.

Being posted right after a few big TP sales, your suggestion looks like a mockery.

[SquelchHU]

I know EXACTLY what it means;

In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills," and grab the most loot, no matter how deleterious their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general.

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

A munchkin is a cheater. What you described (someone who plays to win, without cheating) is a full on powergamer. A powergamer has no more in common with a munchkin than a chessmaster has in common with a board flipper.

Also, nerfs hit everyone. Not just the hardcore players. The casual players are actually hit more, because it takes them longer to recover.

[IronClan]

or you plan every minutia of your character from level 0, or you fail at life. Choose one.

Ah hah here's the problem

Every experienced D&D player knows a caster is going to do the most damage towards the end of the characters existence, and they also know that self same caster will be curled up behind the melee in the fetal position for most of the beginning of the campaign... I'm not sure what relevance you bringing this up has except that it again seems to indicate that you for some reason, approach P&P like it's a game of Diablo or WoW or some other end game focused MMO where any levels below the level cap are viewed as an inconvenience before the "real game starts" No one in P&P plans there characters based solely on how they will play at 20, and indeed it's a long standing convention that 20th level (or whatever you capped at in your campaign) gets you some sort of hero's send off adventure, then character retirement...

Your attitude is just not prevelent at all in normal P&P circles... There's a reason the term munchkin is a widely known derogatory term. if what you were trying to assert were true (that munchkins are the norm in P&P) then there would be a commonly accepted term for "gimps" in P&P instead of Munchkin and there isn't... How do you explain that one? The majority usually doesn't popularize a term for themselves that is insulting...

[SquelchHU]

Ah hah here's the problem

Every experienced D&D player knows a caster is going to do the most damage towards the end of the characters existence, and they also know that self same caster will be curled up behind the melee in the fetal position for most of the beginning of the campaign... I'm not sure what relevance you bringing this up has except that it again seems to indicate that you for some reason, approach P&P like it's a game of Diablo or WoW or some other end game focused MMO where any levels below the level cap are viewed as an inconvenience before the "real game starts" No one in P&P plans there characters based solely on how they will play at 20, and indeed it's a long standing convention that 20th level (or whatever you capped at in your campaign) gets you some sort of hero's send off adventure, then character retirement...

Bzzt! Wrong.

The optimized caster's damage output is ZERO. Yes, that's right. Zero. Regardless, he still wins everything ever. Why? Because he's bypassing the sucker's game of HP damage, and using effects that JUST WIN.

In practice his damage output will actually be miniscule, mostly because of incidental damage. Black Tentacles, successful saves vs Finger of Death, stuff like that.

As for the position of the caster, if he is behind the melee that is purely circumstantial because 1: The melee characters have no actual means to protect anyone, including themselves so if the enemy would like to walk over and attack the wizard then that is what they will do. 2: The optimal party is all casters at levels 1-20. It is by no means endgame exclusive (and even if you ignore the means by which all casters > all even at levels 1-4, 5-20 is still not endgame exclusive).

Remember kids, Color Spray is a first level spell. And it can and will win encounters by itself, at level 1.

So your party is Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Wizard. You have 4-6 Color Sprays + Commands + Entangles. More than enough. And it only gets better from there. You also have three that can melee if you care (which you shouldn't). The only thing that this party cannot do that the typical Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard party cannot is traps... and I use this term very loosely, because Rogues aren't that good at traps either.

Your attitude is just not prevelent at all in normal P&P circles... There's a reason the term munchkin is a widely known derogatory term. if what you were trying to assert were true (that munchkins are the norm in P&P) then there would be a commonly accepted term for "gimps" in P&P instead of Munchkin and there isn't... How do you explain that one? The majority usually doesn't popularize a term for themselves that is insulting...

Powergamers are the norm if you want non casters to work. Therefore either everyone is a caster, or no one cares that the Red Shirt dies every other session... and that's me being overly generous.

[flynnjsw]

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

A munchkin is a cheater. What you described (someone who plays to win, without cheating) is a full on powergamer. A powergamer has no more in common with a munchkin than a chessmaster has in common with a board flipper.

Also, nerfs hit everyone. Not just the hardcore players. The casual players are actually hit more, because it takes them longer to recover.

Actually, no it's not wrong. You just don't want to be included in the group. Here is the full definition;

In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills," and grab the most loot, no matter how deleterious their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general.

The term was applied originally to young gamers by older players[1], presumably because the connotation of being short and ridiculous (like the Munchkins in the book and film The Wizard of Oz) made it an apt label for the childish gamers it was applied to. However, before long it came to refer to anyone who engaged in a juvenile gaming style no matter their height, age or experience.

Munchkins are infamous for various degrees of cheating, willfully misinterpreting rules that work against them while boisterously proclaiming ones that work in their favor. As a matter of course they selectively obey the letter of rules while perverting the spirit blatantly. The worst munchkins will cheat shamelessly, ignoring inconvenient numerical modifiers and fouling dice throws till they get the result they want. During character creation, munchkins engage in ruthless min-maxing, leading to exceptionally unrealistic or unusual characters who make no sense except in terms of raw power.

Munchkins are often accused of twinking or roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.

A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities.

A game master who constantly awards players magical or "broken" (overly powerful) items without proper backstory or justification can also be called a munchkin master. Many on-line roleplaying games, such as Diablo II, Final Fantasy XI, and World of Warcraft, foster this sort of roleplaying due to the limitations of MMORPGs in terms of personality. The stimulus created by improving one's equipment and stats can take the place of the emotion that is sometimes attained in "table top" roleplaying.

[IronClan]

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

A munchkin is a cheater. What you described (someone who plays to win, without cheating) is a full on powergamer. A powergamer has no more in common with a munchkin than a chessmaster has in common with a board flipper.

In common parlance:

http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Munchkin
"Munchkin is how one should refer to someone who tries to win a role-playing game. It can be expressed, displayed, or seen in an aggressively competitive style of play. For example, getting the most enemies killed or the most loot taken, all without any thoughts about roleplaying, a storyline, fairness, logic and, the most importantly, other players' fun. The term is used either as a negative label (for example, to an immature powergamer) or in a humorous or sarcastic context (like in "oh, what a munchkin you are, having 6d6 unarmed damage!"). "


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=munchkin
"Synonym for powergamer. Used most often derogatively. Granted, he's munchkin... so why are you playing with him?"

and

"powergamer who has no respect for role playing and other player
the munchkin shouts:my half dragon/goblni crusader knight can do 10 times teh damage then yoar gimppped elf!!!!!11 i no moer then you,so dood back off"

http://www.supermegamonkey.net/2006/...unchkins.shtml
"Munchkin players often view the game as a contest which can be won, and done with a minimum of struggle and uncertainty. The player is winning when he defeats everything the DM throws at the character, and does it without breaking a sweat. Thus, having a character who can deal out large amounts of damage every round is more pleasurable, as it gives the player a better chance of "winning.""

http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/game/


Steve Jackson seems to know what a Munchkin is

[SquelchHU]

Actually, no it's not wrong. You just don't want to be included in the group. Here is the full definition;

In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner. A munchkin seeks within the context of the game to amass the greatest power, score the most "kills," and grab the most loot, no matter how deleterious their actions are to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is used almost exclusively as a pejorative and frequently is used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general.

The term was applied originally to young gamers by older players[1], presumably because the connotation of being short and ridiculous (like the Munchkins in the book and film The Wizard of Oz) made it an apt label for the childish gamers it was applied to. However, before long it came to refer to anyone who engaged in a juvenile gaming style no matter their height, age or experience.

Munchkins are infamous for various degrees of cheating, willfully misinterpreting rules that work against them while boisterously proclaiming ones that work in their favor. As a matter of course they selectively obey the letter of rules while perverting the spirit blatantly. The worst munchkins will cheat shamelessly, ignoring inconvenient numerical modifiers and fouling dice throws till they get the result they want. During character creation, munchkins engage in ruthless min-maxing, leading to exceptionally unrealistic or unusual characters who make no sense except in terms of raw power.

Munchkins are often accused of twinking or roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.

A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities.

A game master who constantly awards players magical or "broken" (overly powerful) items without proper backstory or justification can also be called a munchkin master. Many on-line roleplaying games, such as Diablo II, Final Fantasy XI, and World of Warcraft, foster this sort of roleplaying due to the limitations of MMORPGs in terms of personality. The stimulus created by improving one's equipment and stats can take the place of the emotion that is sometimes attained in "table top" roleplaying.

Your syntax indicates a Wiki. Your argument is invalid.

*checks other post*

Yup, a wiki.

Now I'm going to explain this real slowly for ya. See, wikis can be edited by anyone. At any time. So if I wanted to 'prove' say that the color purple looks like this:



Then all I would have to do is edit the page so that it is actually defining blue, and then copy paste and link to that. And according to the wiki, I'd be right... because I made it that way.

Now try again with a credible source.

Otherwise...

[IronClan]

Bzzt! Wrong.
Powergamers are the norm if you want non casters to work. Therefore either everyone is a caster, or no one cares that the Red Shirt dies every other session... and that's me being overly generous.

Man squelch you need a hug, and a good DM As far as the munchkin definition deflection strategy you're using, well you can stick with whatever definition makes you feel most comfortable about your playstyle but it is well know that common parlance is the ultimate judge of what a word means, if you don't believe me look up "aint" in a dictionary... Yeah it's a freakin word now. Steve Jackson is certainly more of an authority than you are, hell he may have actually coined the term, and it's pretty clear what he thinks a munchkin means...

Yes it's sad that your entire P&P experience was ruined by a bad group... nothing kills the fun of P&P like overly focusing on numbers.

[SquelchHU]

Man squelch you need a hug, and a good DM As far as the munchkin definition deflection strategy you're using, well you can stick with whatever definition makes you feel most comfortable about your playstyle but it is well know that common parlance is the ultimate judge of what a word means, if you don't believe me look up "aint" in a dictionary... Yeah it's a freakin word now. Steve Jackson is certainly more of an authority than you are, hell he may have actually coined the term, and it's pretty clear what he thinks a munchkin means...

Yes it's sad that your entire P&P experience was ruined by a bad group... nothing kills the fun of P&P like overly focusing on numbers.

This entire post made me equal parts lol and facepalm.

[Limey]

Nonsense, complete utter nonsense. It's the difference between 100% offhand and 90% with only T1 tempest. Calling that build breaking is complete and utter insanity.

Mr 7 Day Trial, we don't use the word insane, we prefer the term "mentally hilarious"

[IronClan]

This entire post made me equal parts lol and facepalm.

You really ought to see someone about that it's quite "mentally hilarious"

edit: +1 Limey

[Fomori]

What do you get your fun from? If it was only from social interactions, you could just as well play Hello Kitty, WoW and have fun. DDO is a game about killing monsters, exploring dungeons, developing your character and... killing monsters. Game updates interfere with both your character development and your killing capabilities. Just a simple 13% nerf neglects months if not years of grind to improve your character.

Strangely enough... I get my fun from killing monsters, exploring dungeons, and seeing what I can accomplish within the confines of my character. Sometimes my character choices simply are not fun to play, due to numerical flaws, and I reroll. Sometimes they are sub-optimal but still fun. Sometimes they are optimal and still not fun.

I cannot dispute that nerfs neglect the character improvement grind, which is why I choose not to do it.

As far as social interaction go, I really dislike grouping and prefer to solo.

When we throw teamplay into equation, the issue becomes even more entertaining. Whoops, sorry, you can't tank Horoth as you used to, because your dps is not sufficient to hold aggro. Sorry, your barbarian can't join - we need DPS.

You dont want me, meh... I probably dont want to group with you either. While your judgement may be rational and correct I am not going to create drama over being rejected. Not the first, wont be the last.

Being posted right after a few big TP sales, your suggestion looks like a mockery.

Nah, when I mock people I am blatantly obvious about it.

[flynnjsw]

Your syntax indicates a Wiki. Your argument is invalid.

*checks other post*

Yup, a wiki.

Now I'm going to explain this real slowly for ya. See, wikis can be edited by anyone. At any time. So if I wanted to 'prove' say that the color purple looks like this:



Then all I would have to do is edit the page so that it is actually defining blue, and then copy paste and link to that. And according to the wiki, I'd be right... because I made it that way.

Now try again with a credible source.

Otherwise...

Seems Alhaz has already done that; and you seemed to have missed it. Seems to me you fall directly into the definition with your own actions.

[REALb0r3d]

Can I be mad too?

[ThrasherGT]

Can I be mad too?

Not before I finish My coffee.........

[vVAnjilaVv]

Not before I finish My coffee.........

Well HURRY UP! *stamps foot & pouts*