U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[Cetus]

What, you don't use haste boosts or PS?
You can't always only use them when you're not fighting if you wan't optimization.

Use them when I'm not fighting? quite the contrary..

I power surge and boost up when the need arises, .6 s delay does not make a difference when I am twitching anyway. I've played with it for some time and it did not impact my efficiency- just a personal preference.

[Aaxeyu]

Use them when I'm not fighting? quite the contrary..

I power surge and boost up when the need arises, .6 s delay does not make a difference when I am twitching anyway. I've played with it for some time and it did not impact my efficiency- just a personal preference.

Ofcourse it makes a difference. But what do you care, it's not like you're max dps anyho.

[ragwa1]

No

[Cetus]

/agree.

What does someone with slashing and nothing else specced do in epic rayium? I am sure epic abbot isnt too far away. That might just be the toughest fight in the game when it comes out.

Every time I think of twitching through long fights, the WOW South Park episode comes to mind where Cartman is squirting Ben Gay onto peoples forearms to prevent carpaltunnel.

GTHF still being required for max DPS is conjecture for sure, but I cant believe that Turbine would go as far as eliminating all usefulness of it from the game after seeing all the feedback. They will likely put something in that will make people want to keep those feats. This type of speculation goes against absolutism however, where something definately IS or IS NOT.

I am still not going to go into complate Frenzied Nerdzerker mode until I see the actual results.

Lol...if you read closely I chose my words carefully when using the "max dps statement"...it also says in a chosen fighting style---slashing.

I argued this with shade before and proved that I can hit the wiz king on a 2- its sufficient dps, not max against a target who is 2% of end game content anyhow. My point remains.

Chai...don't get upset, its a game.

My views on quickdraw still remain from what I've found, all this theoretical talk you guys are good at breaks down at the mob after mob combat level.

[Cetus]

Ofcourse it makes a difference. But what do you care, it's not like you're max dps anyho.

lol.

fail

[ragwa1]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

[Cetus]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

yea, unfortunately fixing lag is half of their intentions. They also openly state their view of TWF as overtly higher dps, and thus want to tone it down.

[Chai]

Lol...if you read closely I chose my words carefully when using the "max dps statement"...it also says in a chosen fighting style---slashing.

I argued this with shade before and proved that I can hit the wiz king on a 2- its sufficient dps, not max against a target who is 2% of end game content anyhow. My point remains.

Chai...don't get upset, its a game.

My views on quickdraw still remain from what I've found, all this theoretical talk you guys are good at breaks down at the mob after mob combat level.

I am not upset lol.

I am pointing out my opinion, that nothing in DDO should be justified by one absolutist point of view. While I dont mind absolutist min maxers and what they do for the game by showing us its boundaries, I am almost always against suggesting that changes be made due to one circumstance, and that circumstance being derived by choice.

The statement you likely should be making is this is nerfing your chosen build and playstyle. After clearly defining your playstyle, which you pretty much have, people will then understand your feedback and reply to it regarding how it relates to them, or how it does not.

Its going to nerf my chosen playstyle for 2 of my toons as well. When I actually see the results, I will be able to then at least somewhat measure the impact the change has on what I do. What I cant do is say that this change will have the same universal impact to everyone who plays the same class, or similar builds. I would also not suggest changing the game due to my playstyle alone, although my playstyle as well as yours does add into that equation, a mere one of these shouldnt be used to justify changing the game to fit the one standard.

[Cetus]

I am not upset lol.

I am pointing out my opinion, that nothing in DDO should be justified by one absolutist point of view. While I dont mind absolutist min maxers and what they do for the game by showing us its boundaries, I am almost always against suggesting that changes be made due to one circumstance, and that circumstance being derived by choice.

The statement you likely should be making is this is nerfing your chosen build and playstyle. After clearly defining your playstyle, which you pretty much have, people will then understand your feedback and reply to it regarding how it relates to them, or how it does not.

Its going to nerf my chosen playstyle for 2 of my toons as well. When I actually see the results, I will be able to then at least somewhat measure the impact the change has on what I do. What I cant do is say that this change will have the same universal impact to everyone who plays the same class, or similar builds. I would also not suggest changing the game due to my playstyle alone, although my playstyle as well as yours does add into that equation, a mere one of these shouldnt be used to justify changing the game to fit the one standard.

Thats a convincing point, so I'll admit the hotheadedness stemming from this proposed update. It just doesn't seem like a good idea if every person posting here is saying how a toon of theirs is getting nerfed, regardless of individual setups. Its globally creating a factor of "****, some characters are now not as useful and I need to reevaluate the setup" feeling.

[Chai]

Thats a convincing point, so I'll admit the hotheadedness stemming from this proposed update. It just doesn't seem like a good idea if every person posting here is saying how a toon of theirs is getting nerfed, regardless of individual setups. Its globally creating a factor of "****, some characters are now not as useful and I need to reevaluate the setup" feeling.

Yeap those LRs should be flying off the shelf when this goes down.

I am saying this instinctively of course.

In other news, Lamania might get a good stress test when this goes live on that server for testing purposes.

Cant wait.

Its possible I might see you all over there. Though with the sheer number of people its possible I wont heh.

[Chai]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

I have been harping on this for a while. When I played EQ, we didnt have raid restrictions that applied to how many people we can take into an instance. At times we would have 75 people or so, and we didnt see this type of DPS lag that affected everyone at the same time to the same degree.

I have to believe there is another way around this.

[sigtrent]

but, wouldn't changing the attack speed enhancements to "doublestrike" percentages demand a code rework- which would globally affect all speed boost enhancements, even the haste boost? Thats what I'm interested in learning about.

I'm sure it takes some coding. I'm a programmer so I have some insight, although every program is different. Because they have some mechanics that work like doublestrike already (glancing blows) I think they can likely adapt that code. Clearly effects in game are not tightly bound to sources so any think can produce any effect. Trying the code for a double strike effect to an item or spell is likely as easy as making a few database changes (and then doing lots of testing). Creating the mechanic and balancing out the consequences is likely where the work is. Also pulling out the TWF mechanic we have now may be a bit tangled.

It wouldn't need to effect all speed boosts. Those can stay the same, its just the ones they change will "point to" a new effect they are creating while the old ones point to the old effect.

[sigtrent]

3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens.

Only for twitch would it be useless. It also grants a glancing blow chance on attack 4 of the standing animation.

[sigtrent]

I have been harping on this for a while. When I played EQ, we didnt have raid restrictions that applied to how many people we can take into an instance. At times we would have 75 people or so, and we didnt see this type of DPS lag that affected everyone at the same time to the same degree.

I have to believe there is another way around this.

EQ characters don't attack 4-6 times per second. More like once every 2 seconds. I've also been in DDO groups where there was little lag in a full party, but it was clear it was not a DPS madness crowd.

Lag in DDO is double edged. On one hand it means the game is performing badly and you could die without much recourse. On the other hand it means you are dealing insane damage to your enemy and they are likely to drop quickly.

Heck, my level 19 paladin monk can almost generate DPS lag all by himself. Haste + fighter boost + wind stance + Zeal + GTWF + Unarmed speed..... its F-ing fast! Numbers just kind of fly away like a movie credit on TV. In EQ2 I used to fall asleep at the keyboard and wake up having won the fight :P And EQ doesn't need aiming or as much collision detection. Monsters can move through you, you can hit so long as you re in a pretty big zone of effect etc... its just a much simpler game on the technical side.

[Vanshilar]

(124 x 17 hits) + (595 x 2 crits) / 20 swings = 164.9 average damage per swing
61 x 9.5 hits / 20 swings = 29 average glancing blow per swing

29 / 164.9 = 17.6% of your dps while twitching or moving


So given that twitch attacking is only a roughly 20% increase in attack speed, I dont think twitching will increase dps much at all (it could possibly even lower dps for barbs)

So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF?

I'm not quite sure if you were being facetious but ah, based on those numbers, it seems pre-update 5 (i.e. currently) twitch damage per swing would be 164.9 + 29 = ~194 damage per hit while auto-attack would be 164.9 + 61 * 0.95 * 0.75 = ~208 damage per hit. That twitch is ~20% higher attack rate would mean that it does 194 * 1.2 = ~233 damage per hit of the same time frame of auto-attack (that is, twitch would do 233 damage in the time it takes an auto-attack guy to do a swing, while the auto-attack guy would do 208 damage during the swing) => twitch gives roughly 12% more DPS than auto-attack currently.

Of course, you take away the glancing blows, and you take away roughly 29/194 = ~15% of (a barbarian's) DPS, so that twitch would be 165 * 1.2 = ~198 damage in the time frame of auto-attack. Hence barbs might have less DPS twitching once the update goes in. However, this is sort of a rough analysis (since it uses the above numbers which are rough and don't consider things like seeker etc), in some cases it may still be better to twitch, it will depend on the circumstance. And I think that's one of the developers' goals; if it's not clear that twitch gives you an advantage, then hopefully less people will learn how to do so is probably their intent.

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by moving THF doing 17% less DPS than moving TWF, I think their intent is that autoattack TWF = autoattack THF = moving THF.

What's interesting is how it will affect non-barb THF, since barbs get a disproportionate amount of DPS from glancing blows compared with the other styles (due to frenzy and death frenzy damage proccing on every glancing blow), it may be that non-barb THFers will still find it advantageous to twitch. And of course, there are still some situations where twitching will still be highly advantageous, such as hitting stunned monsters.

Anyway, I think it'll be a shame if they do make twitching not give an edge in combat. Currently it's a game mechanic that relies on player skill rather than just length of time spent grinding for ingredients (i.e. TWF), and it's not a particularly big game-changer or anything. Losing it would make the game more boring -- back to just hitting auto-attack and checking email, and lose the dynamicism in combat. It seems like however, it's part of a more "global" nerf to DPS; both THF and TWF will be affected. Don't see how that's different than, say, giving all the monsters 10% more HP behind the scenes.

EDIT: Rereading the thread, I'm guessing Monkey_Archer is referring to less DPS while continually moving rather than stop-move-stop-move style of twitching or stepping or whatever. Hmmm.

[Aaxeyu]

lol.

fail

Can't say I expected anything more from you...

[maddmatt70]

Shrug, its not like glancing blows add much damage when doing perfect twitch anyway. This allow the perfect twitchers (5% of the playing population) to dump the lousy thf feats that is if they still have them.

[BlackSteel]

Shrug, its not like glancing blows add much damage when doing perfect twitch anyway. This allow the perfect twitchers (5% of the playing population) to dump the lousy thf feats that is if they still have them.

for a barbarian its more than 10% of their total single target damage

[Shade]

Only for twitch would it be useless. It also grants a glancing blow chance on attack 4 of the standing animation.

Really getting old.

People who have no idea about the fighting style commenting on it.

Here's a simple fact you need to understand if your going to continue in this thread:

EVERYONE - EVERY-ONE who uses two handed fighting, uses attacks while moving. OFTEN.

This game is all about active combat, monsters run around allot. Players run around allot. Players uses attacks while moving allot.

All players.

Not just ones who understand twitch attack.

Even if you have no idea how to twitch attack. You currently do equal or better DPS using purely attacks while moving as long as your attack bonus is high enough. All players can understand this simple concept. It's how the game is designed and is intended as it was part of the combat speed updates to equalize attacks while moving with those with standing. The difference is the -4 attack penalty.

This is a NERF to all THF players that have the full THF feat line. Period.

GET IT?

Good.

[Monkey_Archer]

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by moving THF doing 17% less DPS than moving TWF, I think their intent is that autoattack TWF = autoattack THF = moving THF.

What i mean is this:

TWF and THF attack at the same speed standing still (approximately). Suppose the changes make them do roughly equal dps. This dps would include glancing blows.

TWF and THF also attack at the same speed while moving (approximately). By removing glancing blows completely there is no possible way THF can do as much dps as TWF. (roughly 17% less on a barb)
That would be like saying that TWFs shouldnt get offhand attacks while moving.