U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[donfilibuster]

Leave the game mechanics as it is, ask the devs to research a purely technical way to resolve the fast combat.
The piggyback on the physics check and turning off combat feedback are two such ideas but surely can be further looked into.

[Thrudh]

The easiest way to tell if someone knows how to play a THF toon is to watch them twitch imo. With this aspect of THF worthless its gonna make a lot of awful players look a lot better unfortunately.

Auto attacking is gonna make a noticeable change in DPS and seems to be an attempt to even the epic SoS with TWF Greensteels.

Playing my Barbs is going to be whole lot less fun and playing a nerfed TWF is going to be worse.

Having to twitch constantly is pain in the butt for most people... I'm VERY glad this may be gone... If the monster is moving, I'll move... If the monster is standing still, it's crazy that I have to "twitch" while fighting so that the ubers don't think I'm worthless.

I have enough chance for carpel tunnel with my day job on a computer, and playing this game for 2-3 hours a night... I'll be very excited if the bonus from "twitching" is removed from this game.

[Thrudh]

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

Twitching has nothing to do with moving, jumping, changing position, and avoiding attacks... I love that part of DDO too.... I love maneuvering to keep a troll between me and his two buddies so only the first one can actually swing at me...

Twitching is when you have to move constantly while beating on a stationary target... Some people are good at it and enjoy it I guess... I can do it, but it's hard on my fingers, and it's very fake... Twitching is not tactical movement... Twitching is to increase your DPS by semi-exploiting the combat system to get your DPS higher.

[lolwatboomer]

Twitching has nothing to do with moving, jumping, changing position, and avoiding attacks... I love that part of DDO too.... I love maneuvering to keep a troll between me and his two buddies so only the first one can actually swing at me...

Twitching is when you have to move constantly while beating on a stationary target... Some people are good at it and enjoy it I guess... I can do it, but it's hard on my fingers, and it's very fake... Twitching is not tactical movement... Twitching is to increase your DPS by semi-exploiting the combat system to get your DPS higher.

you do realize the proposed changes nerf thf dps while moving, regardless of whether or not you're "twitching"

[Swedishchef]

I never was a great twitcher, but some people are and put out more dmg while twitching, *some say exploiting* i say that all of us are trying to "beat" the game and this is something you have been abel to for a long time so i see no point in making this change to thf.
As for the glancing blows, they have been on and off for the third time now? I know we had em at beta, i know we had em in gianthold and we have them now, all theese times they have been nerfed so it´s nothing new.

Now if the servers don´t like dps lagg all i have to say is: Get new hardware, you are making enough revenue to invest in it, and don´t nerf the combat.

TBH i think new serverhardware would solve alot (if we are talking lagg issues), and i don´t think melee dps should be nerfed at all due to they still lack in solo ability vs casters divine and arcane from mid to high-lvl so it would only be fair to the melees to be abel to have something good going for them.
I was even considering making a 2hf just for flavour but now i think i´ll stay safe with 2wf or just roll up another fvs or sorc.

my 2cp.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

I've never run Shroud (Lv 17 toon is flagged, but I'd rather wait another Level), and while I realize it's a major Raid and quite important, is it really worth nerfing TWF and THF in order to decrease the lag (which, from what I've heard, happens mainly in the Shroud) for one quest?

Personally, I'll keep playing DDO as long as my guild is active and the general FPS/Legend of Zelda feel of the combat is unchanged. I don't consider myself a power gamer, so the numbers talk doesn't phase me (although I like dealing damage quite a bit!). I just hope the game remains fun and Priam isn't gimped by the new updates.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I've never run Shroud (Lv 17 toon is flagged, but I'd rather wait another Level), and while I realize it's a major Raid and quite important, is it really worth nerfing TWF and THF in order to decrease the lag (which, from what I've heard, happens mainly in the Shroud) for one quest?

Personally, I'll keep playing DDO as long as my guild is active and the general FPS/Legend of Zelda feel of the combat is unchanged. I don't consider myself a power gamer, so the numbers talk doesn't phase me (although I like dealing damage quite a bit!). I just hope the game remains fun and Priam isn't gimped by the new updates.

People don't seem to get it even though it keeps being repeated....

The nerf to TWF was not for lag, it was because they thought it was ahead of THF and they wanted to make them competitive. The devs have also tried at least twice to get rid of twitch combat - they don't like it or intend for it to be there. These are changes the Devs WANT to do NOT related to lag but that are convinient to change at this time since they are touching swing mechanics anyway.

The portion of the change dealing with lag is a change to collision mechanics and it could be done without any change to actual combat.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

People don't seem to get it even though it keeps being repeated....

The nerf to TWF was not for lag, it was because they thought it was ahead of THF and they wanted to make them competitive. The devs have also tried at least twice to get rid of twitch combat - they don't like it or intend for it to be there. These are changes the Devs WANT to do NOT related to lag but that are convinient to change at this time since they are touching swing mechanics anyway.

The portion of the change dealing with lag is a change to collision mechanics and it could be done without any change to actual combat.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up then. But why nerf when they can attempt to improve the failing fighting style? Or have they already tried that in an unsuccessful way?

Pardon my ignorance of the technical details.

[Chai]

Conjecture.

Provide some reasoning behind it. I really can't see any.

All I see is people that don't understand the game blaming everything on somethign they don't udnerstand every single time the combat system is changed.

You all said the same thing when attack speeds were changed - that twitch won't be good anymore. You were wrong. Your wrong again.

Before this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.
After this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.

Yea indirectly, twitch will lose some DPS. But so will any THF combat in general. So that's not a direct nerf at all.

This just nerfs all THF incredibly by removing all aoe damage while moving (a major feature of the GTHF)

With this removed, there would hardly be any reason to take GTHF.. Thus Barbarians will gain more ground over fighters as they're feat selection for DPS won't be so limited, while fighters have less useful feats to select from.

If anything, this is a indirect nerf to the fighter class. Not twitching.

Yourself and others are looking for a DEV to come right out and say it, or you will continue to deny that this is whats happening. They pretty much already have. Actions speak louder than words. While I dont necessarily agree with the nerf, I will say that the nerf is "saying" what words are not. What you call conjecture, I call observation based conclusion, based on probability. What other probable explanation is there?

How does barbarian being able to drop GTHF and take something else give them more ground in the DPS game? What will they take in place of GTHF that will increase damage output further?

Fighters have the same feats to select from as barbarians do. They just get 18 feats, so yeah naturally there will be some choices that dont have a clear cut impact on DPS, but this doesnt change in either case. It has always been that way. It is that way now, and will continue to be that way after the nerf.

Twitch is DIRECTLY losing DPS due to not getting glancing blows applied to it, as will every swing when moving period. Again, though I dont agree with it, it is a DIRECT nerf. You have even stated in the past that the THF combat style is all about being able to move and attack multiple targets at the same time in order to draw aggro and damage multiple mobs. DPS numbers are being removed from that playstyle, and it doesnt get more direct than that. It doesnt mean twitching wont be better DPS than not twitching, but it sure is taking a hit.

[Samadhi]

The change to glancing blows is way overboard IMO. So many mobs in this game bounce around like jackrabbits that this essentially means in 90% of non-raid content there will be no glancing blows at all. Doesn't seem like any real point in spending the feats for those anymore. /lame

[D-molisher]

Dooooh.
I move with my 2 h fighters, basicly to keep mobs from flanking me.
With this proposed change, you would remove the main reason for GTWF.
Wow this update 5 will change alot, i seriously hope you test this alot on Lamnia or what its called.

P.S So now i mostlikely got to rebuild 3 tempest rangers & my 2h bard, palladin & monk. After update 5 - bummer. Only 75 % off my chars.

[Cetus]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced. You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

If the developers are concerned with TWF being so overpowered, whats with the statement in the OP saying how they "overdid it" with the ESOS, its self contradictory.

Then the OP goes on describing the physical detection ensueing after a hit is processed and propose a solution to treat TWF more like THF in terms of lag mitigation.

My solution is, sure, go ahead- let the combat assocaited with TWF change to that mechanism, as long as their DPS isnt altered, and let THF and their glancing blows be.

Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.

[Roziel_Longblade]

It would be a shame if there was no option for 2hw to do glancing damage while moving. 2wf will have the option of STWF to maintain current dps lvls. It would be nice if 2hf had something similar.

Would it be possible for Spring Attack to re-enable mobile 2h glancing damage? It is very feat intensive to unlock spring attack, which is currently a pretty weak stand alone feat.

[Chai]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced. You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

If the developers are concerned with TWF being so overpowered, whats with the statement in the OP saying how they "overdid it" with the ESOS, its self contradictory.

Then the OP goes on describing the physical detection ensueing after a hit is processed and propose a solution to treat TWF more like THF in terms of lag mitigation.

My solution is, sure, go ahead- let the combat assocaited with TWF change to that mechanism, as long as their DPS isnt altered, and let THF and their glancing blows be.

Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.

I think what you said here is correct, however, everyone who posts about twtching seems to not want to directly mention that you can increase your attack animation speed, which increases DPS.

Remember spaz attacking a few years ago?

This is why we now have a progressive attack chain. I dont see this nerf to THF attack while moving as being much different.

[Daggaz]

Twitch fighting aside, I was dismayed when I saw the proposed idea/nerf about no glancing attacks while moving. The only time I ever stand completely still when fighting is for portal beating (still havent gotten the hang of twitching). In actual battles, constant movement is an integral part of the whole game.

-avoiding flanks
-moving into flanks
-following highly mobile mobs (like ALL of them except the animals, pretty much)
-keeping other characters in view (im a battle cleric)
-avoiding special attacks (cuz honestly, who actually shieldblocks except the turtles, who arent attacking anyhow)
-dodging ranged attacks
-switching to optimal targets (stunned opponents, spreading para love, etc)
-using corners/doors etc to advantage
-"leading" enemies into a certain spot
-kiting thru blade barrier while still attacking

And what about the supposed love given to sword and board wielders of bastard swords and dwarven war axes? Extra glancing blows, am I _ever_ actually going to see those? Not with these changes because of course I am still going to be moving around most of the time.

Not to mention, standing still is not just stupid tactics, its boring. BORING BORING BORING!! TURBINE ITS BORING!!!

I wont drop the game if they make this change.. but I will drop my THF feat chain. I think I will just take 3x toughness instead so I can sit at 650 hps. Why not. but i would prefer more action..

[Thrudh]

You have even stated in the past that the THF combat style is all about being able to move and attack multiple targets at the same time in order to draw aggro and damage multiple mobs.

I never understood why Shade harps on that point... He has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

[Thrudh]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced.

Umm.. except everyone hits everything on a 2 in this game, even when moving, so no, it's not "perfectly balanced".

You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

We've got vets on these boards right now who look upon non-twitchers as "bad players"

Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.

Even as I rail against twitching... I'm perfectly okay with the devs leaving combat alone and just removing the physics detection from the off-hand in TWF... I think one step at a time is much better way to troubleshoot a system.

[Daggaz]

I never understood why Shade harps on that point... He has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

Come on. Shade is more than vocal enough about twitch = max DPS. Everybody knows this. Forum n00bs learn this within a day of hitting the boards. He has famous threads that are practically stickied that anounce this in the title. If he wants to argue alterior motives, so be it, but its hardly a "disguise."

At any rate, making it into some kind of personal pro-Shade/anti-Shade argument subtracts from the actual debate, which Shade and his choice of tactics have no direct control over. Like the rest of us, he is merely a player. Lets just keep the thread to the topic at hand: THF glancing attack changes, how will it effect the current game (twitch fighting included), is it good or bad, why?

[Chai]

Come on. Shade is more than vocal enough about twitch = max DPS. Everybody knows this. Forum n00bs learn this within a day of hitting the boards. He has famous threads that are practically stickied that anounce this in the title. If he wants to argue alterior motives, so be it, but its hardly a "disguise."

At any rate, making it into some kind of personal pro-Shade/anti-Shade argument subtracts from the actual debate, which Shade and his choice of tactics have no direct control over. Like the rest of us, he is merely a player. Lets just keep the thread to the topic at hand: THF glancing attack changes, how will it effect the current game (twitch fighting included), is it good or bad, why?

No, its not personal, in fact I agree with him on most things, but when people are so hung up on tangible proof, the only tangible proof I really need is the fact that it is being nerfed, and for no other particular reason. Conjecture? Yes, but its a pretty safe one at that. See: spaz attacking and progressive attack chains. We have been through all this before.

Twitching will still be max single target DPS for a THF, it just takes a serious hit to multiple target DPS. If you have 5 mobs in a doorway, a twitching THF cant be paralleled in melee. With the loss of glancing when moving, twitch in that situation will hit one mob, while standing still and using the combat animation will hit one mob and glance the others, complete with effects etc. When the targeted mob drops, the others will already have serious HP loss. Now a THF style toon will have to stand still and use the built in combat animation to make this happen in these situations, and this is a serious loss of situational DPS, which THF toons are basically famous for.

The sacrificing AB while twitching arguement is a non arguement, as even in epic content, a well enough geared and built toon who even belongs in epic content hits on a 2 or better save for maybe some VERY specific situations. This style wouldnt be used as much, and would be a mere footnote, if sacrificing AB had any impact whatsoever. The fact that you can twitch on epic vellah and gain DPS is exactly what I am talking about.

[Daggaz]

No, its not personal, in fact I agree with him on most things, but when people are so hung up on tangible proof, the only tangible proof I really need is the fact that it is being nerfed, and for no other particular reason. Conjecture? Yes, but its a pretty safe one at that. See: spaz attacking and progressive attack chains. We have been through all this before.

Twitching will still be max single target DPS for a THF, it just takes a serious hit to multiple target DPS. If you have 5 mobs in a doorway, a twitching THF cant be paralleled in melee. With the loss of glancing when moving, twitch in that situation will hit one mob, while standing still and using the combat animation will hit one mob and glance the others, complete with effects etc. When the targeted mob drops, the others will already have serious HP loss. Now a THF style toon will have to stand still and use the built in combat animation to make this happen in these situations, and this is a serious loss of situational DPS, which THF toons are basically famous for.

The sacrificing AB while twitching arguement is a non arguement, as even in epic content, a well enough geared and built toon who even belongs in epic content hits on a 2 or better save for maybe some VERY specific situations. This style wouldnt be used as much, and would be a mere footnote, if sacrificing AB had any impact whatsoever. The fact that you can twitch on epic vellah and gain DPS is exactly what I am talking about.

See, when you make your case without using the word "shade," it just seems a lot more substantial and to the point. I hope they dont nerf glancing blows, for the same reasons you bring up here, among others, tho Im not entirely sure now whether you are arguing for or against it.. I could read the above both ways. I hope when I block a door with my S+B or two-handing cleric and swing my axe, that some of the baddies behind the main guy are going to be hit as well, because I know they are all going to be smacking me around without too much trouble, even when I am moving. Because there is no AC after lvl ten for me. Not to mention, glancing blows give my character more room to be useful in a group, as I can attach weapon procs to them.