Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SquelchHU]

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!

I did. 5 attacks a round isn't that bad. 2-4 attacks a second is, if done manually.

[SquelchHU]

I agree with what you're saying with the exception that I don't agree about people wanting the game to be more like D&D. This nerf actually makes TWF more like core D&D rules (except the double strike mechanic but that's haste not TWF). In D&D TWF is mostly attractive to RP'ers, character concept or "philosophy" builds and people who just love Drizzt. or all or parts of the above. That is to say it's FAR from the most dominant playstyle as it is in DDO.

So basically people that think they need to gimp themselves intentionally in order to have a well roleplayed character. At which point the correct response is to make TWF not full of fail (which they did upon introducing it into DDO) and not to revert that change later.

Also I would submit that if DDO instituted several movement rules that they've ignored, such as fatigue/sprinting, not being able to cast spells reliably while jumping, and several others lots of very vocal veteran players would hate hate hate it due to slowing down the game and virtually eliminating zerging.... The game would be far more D&D like but people here by in large don't really want that, at least the most vocal players here don't. They seem to want D&D flavored Half Life 2 without the slower movement and momentary sprint key... Or maybe that's Quake 4 haven't played quake since 3 so who knows.

Um, there's one movement speed. So what are you talking about? But if you do want to try and claim that one speed is 'run', you can still do it for well over a minute non stop by RAW. Since no one is going to dumpstat con that has a clue, the minimum value to assume there is 22 (14 + 2 tome + 6 item). You can run for that many rounds non stop... which means you run for 2:06, walk for 0:06, run for 2:06... aside from annoying people, what does this accomplish?

If your con is lower (say, a low level character) you take 6 second breaks more often, that's all.

And you can remove jump casting when everyone is flying around instead, ya know like they actually would in D&D. That way, instead of jumping to not be slowed by spellcasting, they're just flat out out of range of most stuff and can kill it with impunity.

And don't pretend NWN doesn't have a strong powergamer focus. Even with the gimped out encounters.

[Necron7]

If you take away anything from all this (and every other adjustment that has occurred over the years) it's that no build is going to stand head and shoulders above the rest (at least not for long). They will change THF twitch, and if you don't believe I got a bridge I can sell you.

With an attitude that "-5% = useless" of course you're gonna feel that you have to spend money to fix every single change turbine comes up with. The rest of us will save our money and continue succesfully completing quests with our useless builds just as easily as we did before.

If you feel the need to always have the FotM at your fingertips, again, that's not turbine's problem.

Could you explain how your only getting a -5% for the tempest Ranger?

This is not about fixing lag or balancing things. This has proven to be about money. Turbine will keep nerfing and changing things until people realize this, and stop playing.

It's all fun and games till it's your toons turn to be NERFed.

[krud]

Could you explain how your only getting a -5% for the tempest Ranger?

This is not about fixing lag or balancing things. This has proven to be about money.Turbine will keep nerfing and changing things untill people realize this, and stop playing.

It's all fun and games till it's your toons turn to be NERFed.

All my twf toons will be nerfed in this update. I'm not gonna run and TR them all into THF barbs just to maintain that top 5-10% over everyone else. The concepts I stuck with from the start will work the same as they always did. I will still play them as i have through all other nerfs, with only minor adjustments here and there. They will still kill mobs quite well.

If your character concept only revolves around chasing the maximum possible dps numbers in the game, then your character will always be in a state of flux. Get used to it.

[Necron7]

All my twf toons will be nerfed in this update. I'm not gonna run and TR them all into THF barbs just to maintain that top 5-10% over everyone else. The concepts I stuck with from the start will work the same as they always did. I will still play them as i have through all other nerfs, with only minor adjustments here and there. They will still kill mobs quite well.

If your character concept only revolves around chasing the maximum possible dps numbers in the game, then your character will always be in a state of flux. Get used to it.

Let me get this straight. Every time Turbine decides to change the rules or how you put it "state of flux" and it makes my toon less effective that it's my fault for making my toon the best it could be with the rules that were in place at the time? I think you need to give that statement a little more thought.

[krud]

Let me get this straight. Every time Turbine decides to change the rules or how you put it "state of flux" and it makes my toon less effective that it's my fault for making my toon the best it could be with the rules that were in place at the time? I think you need to give that statement a little more thought.

When the "best it can be" only means some maximum value then yes. If you make a ranger, you can always make him the best possible ranger it can be. If you make a max dps <insert whatever class/race happens to fit the bill atm here> then that will always change. It has been that way since day 1.

[Necron7]

When the "best it can be" only means a number then yes. If you make a ranger, you can still make the best possible ranger it can be. If you make a max dps <insert whatever happens to fit the bill atm here> then that will always change. It has been that way since day 1.

I'm sorry I dont understand incoherent rambling. Perhaps you could rephrase this so that we may all understand what you are trying to say.

[krud]

I'm sorry I dont understand incoherent rambling. Perhaps you could rephrase this so that we may all understand what you are trying to say.

Some people build toward build toward the character, others build by the numbers . The latter are always the most upset at any changes to the game.

For instance the first type will build a ranger, because they want to play a ranger. They may max the numbers within the framework of the ranger, but being a ranger is the priority. Sometimes they end up at the top of the dps ladder, some mods they don't, but they will always be built to be the best among rangers. Those people will still build rangers, and adapt to whatever changes.

The second type does not care what class/race they build, as long as the target value is the best (e.g. best possible dps). When that place on the dps ladder changes with the updates, and they are no longer on top, they get upset because having the best number is priority, regardless of class/race. Since top dps numbers have always been changing throughout ddo's existence, someone who builds for that is gonna have to get used to changing his character from time to time in order to be the best dps build .

[Necron7]

Some people build toward build toward the character, others build by the numbers . The latter are always the most upset at any changes to the game.

For instance the first type will build a ranger, because they want to play a ranger. They may max the numbers within the framework of the ranger, but being a ranger is the priority. Sometimes they end up at the top of the dps ladder, some mods they don't, but they will always be built to be the best among rangers.

The second type does not care what class/race they build, as long as the target value is the best (e.g. best possible dps). When that place on the dps ladder changes with the updates, and they are no longer on top, they get upset because having the best number is priority, regardless of class/race.

Since top dps numbers have always been changing throughout ddo's existence, someone who builds for that is gonna have to get used to changing his character from time to time in order to be the best dps build .

Ok I have tried to make sense out the nonsense you just said. I think what your saying is to intentionally gimp our toons by not choosing any good feats or good paths, so when the rules that are in a constant state of flux change and NERF the good feats and paths then it wont effect our toons.

Is this correct?

[krud]

Ok I have tried to make sense out the nonsense you just said. I think what your saying is to intentionally gimp our toons by not choosing any good feats or good paths, so when the rules that are in a constant state of flux change and NERF the good feats and paths then it wont effect our toons.

Is this correct?

I'm saying if you built a **** good TWF before the update, you'll still have a **** good TWF after the update. It may have changed places on the dps ladder, but he'll still be a **** good TWF. No need to reroll/respec/spend money

If you built to always be the top dps, then that probably will change. Always has, always will. You're gonna have to change with it if you want that.

[Necron7]

I'm saying if you built a **** good TWF before the update, you'll still have a **** good TWF after the update. It may have changed places on the dps ladder, but he'll still be a **** good TWF. No need to reroll/respec/spend money

If you built to always be the top dps, then that probably will change. Always has, always will. You're gonna have to change with it if you want that.

Oh I'm sorry I was looking at it all wrong. It's a "****" good thing to go down on the DPS ladder, the -20% DPS is a "****" good thing, and not being invited to raids now is a "****" good thing. Thank you for correcting me on this I feel so much better, and yes I will get used to getting screwed like this in the future.

Again thank you.

[krud]

Oh I'm sorry I was looking at it all wrong. It's a "****" good thing to go down on the DPS ladder, the -20% DPS is a "****" good thing, and not being invited to raids now is "****" good thing. Thank you for correcting me on this I feel so much better, and yes I will get used to getting screwed like this in the future.

Again thank you.

Sure np. enjoy your "useless" character

[Necron7]

Sure np. enjoy your "useless" character

LMAO

Good one.

[smatt]

You all really need to get some no more tears shampoo.... Fricken crybabies I'm glad you wern't my kids... I can only imagine how your parents dealt with you

[Necron7]

You all really need to get some no more tears shampoo.... Fricken crybabies I'm glad you wern't my kids... I can only imagine how your parents dealt with you

This is very constructive comment. Did you come up with this all on your own?

[Meetch1972]

This is very constructive comment. Did you come up with this all on your own?

I think he telepathically acquired it from the thoughts of all those bothering to keep on reading this thread...

[Xaearth]

I've been away on vacation and came back to see this...

Can someone sum it up for me? All I get out of it is "Don't die."

[Meetch1972]

I've been away on vacation and came back to see this...

Can someone sum it up for me? All I get out of it is "Don't die."

I'll have a go...

Eladrin says: Hey guys we're making a change to hopefully reduce DPS by making 1 physics check for both hands instead of 1 for each hand to see which mobs are in reach when TWFing. At the same time, we're going to reduce the rate of proccing the off-hand attack, based on the given table. A couple of effects (like zeal) are adjusted to mean a chance to 10% chance to proc a second swing in a single attack on the primary hand. Feedback requested.

There's some constructive attempts at, even if useless, feedback based on degrees of speculation about the DPS lag issues.

Min-maxer says OMGFyernerfingTWF I HATE IT WHEN YOU DO THAT TURBINE now we need to spend more money!!!

Others say "yeah it's about balance. Get over it."

At some point early in this the table is changed to reduce the nerfage to TWF for now (by increasing proc chances), but not eliminate the reduction entirely.

Min-maxers scream it's not fair, I don't care what you say!!! Ragequit threats ensue.

Others say "yeah it's about balance. Update 5 isn't just about this - and if it does prove to be that bad it will probably be reversed or adjusted. Get over it."

Some of the min-maxers actually put forward some rational points about concerns with respect to the greensteel items they've constructed to make the most out of TWF and requesting the ability to deconstruct their hard-ground gear. Others suggest a free respec to be available. Some reasonable debate, others foaming at the mouth. A lot of noise shows Turbine that this is a sore point for a good proportion of the forum readers/contributors, and they had best tread lightly if they don't want to lose these people.

Lots of people complain because all they see is the TWF issue. Others point out that Update 5 isn't just about nerfing TWF damage.

Dust settles... U5 is will be getting applied to the production systems starting in just over 7 hours.

What did I miss? Lots probably, but that's how I remember it! Personally, I'm looking forward to my TWF nerfed Rogue being able to make trap/grenade type devices from parts salvaged out of traps disabled during quests...

[Oak3996]

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		110%		110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)	dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		110%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		110%
20 [Other]			100%		100%

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%

So you are effectively nerfing all the twf, and paladins and fighters get the biggest hits... (well, and tempest 1 too)
You really nerf paladins even more cause for paladins smites and sacrifices allways went twice, now they will got half the time...[/QUOTE]

If this is the clean, easy way to look at which summarized what ddo is trying to do tomorrow then there is only 1 word i can think of is ********. The idea of nerfing TWF which basically changes the concept of a class technics to get rid of the server technical issue which is lag is.....OMG where did they find these people ???/

[nanobot1994]

Thanks You Meetch, best post Ive read in the whole thread....

Let me say this again, Eladrin has stated this "Nerf" isn't about LAG its about BALANCE. Yes, its a nerf.... of about 20% DPS its not that bad, do you honestly think that if all MoBs had 20% extra health you couldn't kill them in a reasonable time-frame, resource expenditure?

Our character strength vs MoB strength has a large gap thats certainly more than 20%. We can deal with 20% less DPS.