Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[IronClan]

If you do a forum search for the word "Optimalists" you get one result; this thread.
Just thought that was very interesting fact! Ok, back to topic.

That is interesting, I guess I coined a term.

[Boneyard]

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

[Creeper]

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

I think it would be odd if that were true, yes.

[Marewood]

The two seperate breakdowns I've seen by two number crunchers who didn't seem to agree woith each others perspective (one of them posted here around 8 or 10 pages back) both seemed to concure that the Ranger is actually hardest hit in terms of before/after percentage of DPS. Something around 12-16% hit, versus something around 8% hit for a fighter...

No it will still read "No noobs".

For Marewood,

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...

I was referring to that table, originally posted by Eladrin:

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		110%		110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)	dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		110%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		110%
20 [Other]			100%		100%

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build				Main-hand	Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3)		100%		85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4)		100%		75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity)		110%		55%
20 Paladin (Zeal)		110%		55%
20 [Other]			100%		55%

[/QUOTE]

I don't want to start arguing again or crunch numbers as this topic has been discussed en detail - just want to highlight where my info came from. According to that, Rangers loose the least and multiclass toons [Other] get hit pretty bad. Pure class fighters and pallys are somewhat in between but still get struck quite severe.

Oh btw. did i get that right that they also are planning to nerf glancing blows on THF?

[IronClan]

I was referring to that table, originally posted by Eladrin:

I don't want to start arguing again or crunch numbers as this topic has been discussed en detail - just want to highlight where my info came from. According to that, Rangers loose the least and multiclass toons [Other] get hit pretty bad. Pure class fighters and pallys are somewhat in between but still get struck quite severe.

Oh btw. did i get that right that they also are planning to nerf glancing blows on THF?

Ah well I'm far from an expert on number chrunching, what I personally took from the DPS breakdowns pre and post nerf is that the Tempest ranger is losing the most because it had more to begin with. Higher combat speed and number of offhand attacks... The numbers I'm talking about expressed this as a percentage of DPS lost where the rangers lose the most DPS from this nerf... They still have more off hand attacks than others but they lost more than others.

[IronClan]

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

Here're the numbers I was referring to basically percentage of DPS lost

[Xeraphim]

182 pages? Seriously? I don't have time to read this veritable TOME of Player Responses.

I'll just step back out then. Good luck guys!

[Marewood]

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...

Ok i agree - looked at the numbers more closely and i have to admit - and I also agree with Alahaz - that the Tempest Rangers will perhaps be dealt the severest blow. However, i think two issues are still worth mentioning:

1) Tempest Rangers will still have the highest overall number/percentage of hits - so i am pretty sure that in the strife to maintain their DPS a lot of ppl will respec their build to this particular type of toon, what comes back to killing diversity in the end. Particularly assassin build types and other similar rouges will be in some kind of trouble as single wepaon wielding for them damage wise as is THF (as the multiple threat it generates is deadly for squishy rogues on many occasions).

2) After this nerf we will have a combat system that - when developing a toon - requires one to consider hit penalties, number of hits, hit percentages and so on. The fact that it took me quite some while to figure out how this new combat adjustment even though i know my build quite well shows that this system is getting pretty complicated. I know this is not a WoW type of game and i enjoy this game for the depth and complexity it has got. But the combat system is already quite complex as it stands. The compendium lacks a reliable description on many subjects and if it werent for all you guys on the forums who tested several things out and posted the results a lot of ppl would rely on voodoo like assumptions which are often far from the apllied rule setting.
Now in terms of complexity, we are getting well ahead in working our way towards the german tax system. I dont see how some1 who will be new to this game in the future might in the least know what they are doing when they build their melee toon. Ok - you might say thats part of the fun and playing experience involved but it just stinks if you notice after a few months of working on that built how much you have done wrong.
But hey - you can still get those Hearts from the DDO store after all

[IronClan]

Ok i agree - looked at the numbers more closely and i have to admit - and I also agree with Alahaz - that the Tempest Rangers will perhaps be dealt the severest blow. However, i think two issues are still worth mentioning:

1) Tempest Rangers will still have the highest overall number/percentage of hits - so i am pretty sure that in the strife to maintain their DPS a lot of ppl will respec their build to this particular type of toon, what comes back to killing diversity in the end. Particularly assassin build types and other similar rouges will be in some kind of trouble as single wepaon wielding for them damage wise as is THF (as the multiple threat it generates is deadly for squishy rogues on many occasions).

2) After this nerf we will have a combat system that - when developing a toon - requires one to consider hit penalties, number of hits, hit percentages and so on. The fact that it took me quite some while to figure out how this new combat adjustment even though i know my build quite well shows that this system is getting pretty complicated. I know this is not a WoW type of game and i enjoy this game for the depth and complexity it has got. But the combat system is already quite complex as it stands. The compendium lacks a reliable description on many subjects and if it werent for all you guys on the forums who tested several things out and posted the results a lot of ppl would rely on voodoo like assumptions which are often far from the apllied rule setting.
Now in terms of complexity, we are getting well ahead in working our way towards the german tax system. I dont see how some1 who will be new to this game in the future might in the least know what they are doing when they build their melee toon. Ok - you might say thats part of the fun and playing experience involved but it just stinks if you notice after a few months of working on that built how much you have done wrong.
But hey - you can still get those Hearts from the DDO store after all

On 1 the gap between non tempest/ranger and other TWF is actually narrowed. Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

2 I agree to the extent that they need to not make the rules more labyrinthine and complex than D&D rules... but the nerf really doesn't do that.. If anything the new offhand thing is more P&P than the current system.

I don't like the double strike mechanic silly name silly concept and silly justification... I think Turbine should just bite the bullet and slow combat down by about 1-2% every two weeks until they're 10% slower and leave the stacking haste boosts alone... Humans being who they are 90% of them wont ever realize that combat is slower until someone makes a before/after youtube video proving it. The mistake they made the last time (apparently) was slowing it down ALL OF A SUDDEN... So that people could turn 10% into "like molasses" and a minor change into "the end of DDO". For people who have difficulty dealing with change tend to make the most hyperbolic out of the most mundane, they also tend to not even notice the same change if it's gradual and they don't know it.

[smatt]

On 1 the gap between non tempest/ranger and other TWF is actually narrowed. Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

2 I agree to the extent that they need to not make the rules more labyrinthine and complex than D&D rules... but the nerf really doesn't do that.. If anything the new offhand thing is more P&P than the current system.

I don't like the double strike mechanic silly name silly concept and silly justification... I think Turbine should just bite the bullet and slow combat down by about 1-2% every two weeks until they're 10% slower and leave the stacking haste boosts alone... Humans being who they are 90% of them wont ever realize that combat is slower until someone makes a before/after youtube video proving it. The mistake they made the last time (apparently) was slowing it down ALL OF A SUDDEN... So that people could turn 10% into "like molasses" and a minor change into "the end of DDO". For people who have difficulty dealing with change tend to make the most hyperbolic out of the most mundane, they also tend to not even notice the same change if it's gradual and they don't know it.

I disagree completely here.. Even fio they did it incrementally.. Slowing down combat would create a a situation where far less people would like it... Even new players that had never seen the old combat speed and or the overall speed of the game would be bored.

[IronClan]

I disagree completely here.. Even fio they did it incrementally.. Slowing down combat would create a a situation where far less people would like it... Even new players that had never seen the old combat speed and or the overall speed of the game would be bored.

And yet the combat in many very popular games is significantly slower... many twitch games at that, HL2 has slower combat, and slower appearing run speeds, TF2 might be pretty close or slightly faster in terms of hectic speed than DDO but people regularly switch back to the other slower Halflife2 based stuff... A huge number of RPG's and MMO are slower maybe just about every one of them, Morrowwind and Oblivion were slower and yet critically acclaimed and well received games, and if we want to talk about D&D based games NWN is significantly slower but is probably the single most successful D&D based game ever.

And lets put this in perspective I have toons that have 10% striding and the difference between that and one that doesn't have it is nearly unnoticeable... The difference is literally taking one minute to run somewhere versus taking 54 seconds. LOL

In terms of Combat speed we're talking about 66 seconds to do the same DPS that used to take 60 seconds.

[edit] let me throw some other comparisons out there:
would you rage quit driving if you had to slow down from 33 miles an hour to 30 miles an hour? or from 25 to 22.5? Would you even notice without being hopelessly late for something and on your third Starbucks?

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

[smatt]

And yet the combat in many very popular games is significantly slower... many twitch games at that, HL2 has slower combat, and slower appearing run speeds, TF2 might be pretty close or slightly faster in terms of hectic speed than DDO but people regularly switch back to the other slower Halflife2 based stuff... A huge number of RPG's and MMO are slower maybe just about every one of them, Morrowwind and Oblivion were slower and yet critically acclaimed and well received games, and if we want to talk about D&D based games NWN is significantly slower but is probably the single most successful D&D based game ever.

And lets put this in perspective I have toons that have 10% striding and the difference between that and one that doesn't have it is nearly unnoticeable... The difference is literally taking one minute to run somewhere versus taking 54 seconds. LOL

In terms of Combat speed we're talking about 66 seconds to do the same DPS that used to take 60 seconds.

[edit] let me throw some other comparisons out there:
would you rage quit driving if you had to slow down from 33 miles an hour to 30 miles an hour? or from 25 to 22.5? Would you even notice without being hopelessly late for something and on your third Starbucks?

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

I think you missed my point.. As I said many times when DDO-EU came out with the slower combat speed.... The *****ing whinning and complaining had little to do with the amount of damage doen in any 1 minute or whatever time frame you want to use. It had to do with the feel of the game... One of the big things DDO has going for it is combat... The feel of the combat is VERY important.... Far less important is exactly how much damage you actaully do each swing as oppossed to the look and feel of each swing.. At least for MOST players.... Video game players are very sensitive to even minute changes in how their character moves... It would be a very big mistake for them to slow down combat.. Most of the TWF (W also stading for whinny) will get over it..... Not all but most... And even then the amount of players bothered by the changes will be a small percentage, compared to IMO a vast majority of players that will absolutely hate it if over all combat speed, meaning the flow of animation within the game is slowed... Even the 10% of the DDO-EU roll-out caused a outcry that dwarfs the crying over this latest move...

While it seesm that a lot of people are really bothered by the latest proposed changes by the Devs, I think it's more forum oriented than in game.. I find FAR less outcry in game, most could careless for the most part. Whereas, when they were testing the slower combat on Lama almost 100% of the people said it sucked ass.... Don't come in here with the comparison to driving or this or that.. Not realistic comparisions.. I hate the metaphor game... This is a game, not driving.. Not a cup of coffee... It's a game But if you do want to use a comparison.. Try the difference between .99 and $1.00.... While there's little significant difference, subconsciously there is a BIG difference in how people will react to .99 as oppossed ot $1.00. Btu again this is a game... The feel is very important... Not the reality....

And BTW, yes "I" do notice when my coffee is short.. Or when my cocktail is short poured I'm pretty sensitive when it comes to thinsg though.. I notice minute changes because I'm use to looking for them on a conscious level.

[Meetch1972]

... Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

Trap making and Grenades...

Remember that U5 is more than just attacking the lag monster and DPS nerfing.

[tasebro]

Uhhhh since when has any raid in DDO been a game of chance? The only real "random" nature in any significant quest/raid seems to be whether anyone will DC mid quest, whether those involved know their part, how well they are able to play it, and whether they will suffer from lag issues.

When you are beating a boss that's immune to vorpal, stat drains, paralysis etc, most of the random nature of the boss fight is turned into a statistical analysis which boils down to three letters: DPS. Take VoD for example. You don't know exactly how much damage you're going to do in the next 10 seconds, but can project pretty darn well how much damage you're personally going to do to Suulo over the next few minutes while he's got his back to you and stupidly focussing on the intimitank. Plus you've planned for the orthons, devils and bats. If I were DM I'd be mixing it up and turning Suulo around and using his strengths against the whole party who have generated far more combined aggro than the tank hiding behind his shield. I'd also be giving Suulo a lot less hit points to compensate for the pain he's going to be able to inflict on the rest of the party. But the DM here is a heuristic, and no matter what the developers do to make things "interesting"/"random", it's always countered by an "exploit" aka strategy - a formula for "beating the quest" with the resources you have.

A good group is a statistically moderated, well oiled machine, not a game of roulette. DDO is no more a game of chance when it comes to DPS than the weather bureau is guessing how much rain you'll get in the next couple of hours. Please don't suggest it is.

Meetch--
While it may well be the *tendency* of DPS players to min-max, to GM-proof their builds and thereby eliminate as much deviation from the mean, as high up on the curve as possible, that is as it should be--min-maxing is absolutely *fundamental* to what DnD is, and it is to be positively rewarded, with consideration, not punished with nerfage, or an ever-smaller carrot on an ever-longer pole (which is backarsewards); seeing how we as players *invest* in our builds to achieve those consistent, minmax results, they are "special" not "ordinary", and come with significant opportunity costs, so "game balance" justifications to nerfing DPS simply do not apply particularly when said nerfing merely devalues the return on investment for the sake of devaluation (which is the official stated intent in this case).
It may be minimized by twinked out DPS builds, but 'chance (i.e.: the consequences of not mitigating the effects of no/low rolls) still matters a great deal, otherwise players would not invest in building twinked out toons to mitigate our chances of low rolls.

But for the sake of discussion, lets' just ignore the "whole" being more than the sum-of-its'-parts, and focus ONLY on the "big picture", as indicated by Meech above--
If ppl enjoy playing this game, find it rewarding, then they will tend to invest time and money into it, thus rewarding turbine for a job well done, and knowing that otherwise, the game (and your "statistically moderated, well oiled machine") will go away.
The fact is that someone HAS to pay for it.
I am one of those "someones".

The way I choose to support turbine is
1. f2p/pay-as-you-go; investing money, translated into turbine points, which in turn are converted into content and/or buid upgrades (+2 tomes, xp pots, etc).
2. good word of mouth (free advertising, referrals), which inflates the paying customer base.
3. apply constructive criticism when turbine engages in nitwittery like nerfdate5, and having the integrity not to reward negative behavior with positive rewards (i.e. "money").

Revaluing the current return on heretofore "permanent" build investments (be they purchased or earned) is perfectly acceptable, so long as the result of the revaluation is as good or better than what the "previous value" was.
If such neutral/positive revaluation cannot be done for practical reasons, then reasonable accommodations must be at least offered (reclaiming purchased/eaten stat-tomes, greensteel deconstruction etc)--however, nerfate5 is in fact an intentional DEVALUATION (specifically for multiclass TWFers, as well as monks, S&B fvs and rogs too?), with apparently no direct remedial accommodations being offered to toon builders.

I have two lowbie toons that I would like very much to tweak, by investing in +2 all-stat tomes on (for about $25 per toon, so call it 50 USdollars), and level them to L20, but in view of the devaluation to my existing multiclass DPS TWFer toons coming in nerfdate5, and faced with the certainty of even more devaluations coming in nerfdate6, I am left with the conclusion that I am not inclined to throw good money after bad.

[Meetch1972]

Meetch--
While it may well be the *tendency* of DPS players to min-max, to GM-proof their builds and thereby eliminate as much deviation from the mean, as high up on the curve as possible, that is as it should be--min-maxing is absolutely *fundamental* to what DnD is, and it is to be positively rewarded, with consideration, not punished with nerfage, or an ever-smaller carrot on an ever-longer pole (which is backarsewards); seeing how we as players *invest* in our builds to achieve those consistent, minmax results, they are "special" not "ordinary", and come with significant opportunity costs, so "game balance" justifications to nerfing DPS simply do not apply particularly when said nerfing merely devalues the return on investment for the sake of devaluation (which is the official stated intent in this case).
It may be minimized by twinked out DPS builds, but 'chance (i.e.: the consequences of not mitigating the effects of no/low rolls) still matters a great deal, otherwise players would not invest in building twinked out toons to mitigate our chances of low rolls.

But for the sake of discussion, lets' just ignore the "whole" being more than the sum-of-its'-parts, and focus ONLY on the "big picture", as indicated by Meech above--
If ppl enjoy playing this game, find it rewarding, then they will tend to invest time and money into it, thus rewarding turbine for a job well done, and knowing that otherwise, the game (and your "statistically moderated, well oiled machine") will go away.

You misunderstand me. In fact, the "statistically moderated, well oiled machine" I was referring to is a balanced group that knows what it's doing, listens to eachother, and has a good understanding that when 6 people enter a dungeon and 1 runs off by themselves they are taking a risk that may well be completely unnecessary. In no way was I talking about the game and its mechanics. Everybody knows that all hardware and software sucks - it's just a matter of whose/which sucks the least. That's one of the first laws of IT.

If DDO was a game of chance, I'd flip a coin to figure out whether it was worth playing tonight or not, and if I won then I'd assume I need go no further and not log on - if I lost then of course it's not worth it and again I wouldn't log on. DDO is NOT a game of chance. Chance only comes into it when the group is actively taking risks (for fun, greed, because they're borderline incompetent, without leadership, or otherwise) or subject to factors outside the game rules like DCing or backhoe induced lag. D&D relies far more on luck than DDO, and last time I checked (which admittedly was a while ago) a good DM didn't necessarily reward players for being uber built with uber gear. The rewards ALSO were given for making good choices, doing things that kept the game interesting, and role-playing their weaknesses as well as their strengths. My Lawful Good L20 Pally from DDO could not live with himself in the world of D&D because he's killed too many good and/or law abiding NPCs who didn't have to die. In D&D he would have tried to follow the path of the righteous, smiting evil doers, sparing the innocent and either reasoning with or subduing the misled, not lopping their heads off because they dared wave a dagger at him out of fear. And a good DM would probably give bonus points for a more favourable and true-to-alignment outcome of the encounter, especially if the influential powers of the pally work as hoped.

As to the anti-nerf debate, I have a solution that won't touch the carrot for TWFers at all:
* Leave TWF alone. Completely.
* Make THF more powerful. Say 20%.
* Give all sorcs and wizards 15% higher DCs/spell penetration and damage, and 5% more spell points.
* Do whatever needs to be done for those intermediate classes that don't rely on TWF. Perhaps give them a couple of extra cheap constitution ability points.
* and finally, give all NPCs 20% more hit points.

There you go, no TWF nerfing. Absurd, you say? Absolutely! But if TWF is over-powered compared to everything else, and the mob holds up signs in front of Turbine saying "Down with Nerf!" enough for them to put a stop to the change, what other choice is there? One classes' min-max curve should average out the same as another, on the whole, so either bring down one over-powered aspect, or raise everything else. If THF proves more effective for my build, I'll switch, no complaints. It would be nice if Turbine gave me the dragonshard I need at least...

I am still for this "nerf" with the wish that mob/boss HPs are duly adjusted so the long battles don't needlessly draw out any longer than they currently do. Maybe there should be an animation for the TWF nerf, showing the character thinking about taking a hit and deciding not to, or pulling the attack, like in those kung fu movies where the 20 bad guys all wait their turn to charge in and get beaten up by the hero. I would also like to see the to-hit cumulatively climb up 1 point (possibly including damage) on the primary hand for the next attack each time they decide not to attack with the off hand. We can only wait and see what else is done in the name of balance...

I've rambled enough... peace out.

[tasebro]

You misunderstand me...... We can only wait and see what else is done in the name of balance...

I've rambled enough... peace out.

No, Meech, I understand you very well. With all due respect, I know a red herring when I see one.
This is business, *not* personal.

No amount of post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc justifications--particularly employing "Game Balance" as an excuse--will ever "justify" the coming devaluations in future nerfdates. However, Turbine choosing to take the high road here, by providing some sort of avenue for reasonable accommodation to players wanting to modify (or deconstruct/reclaim) their soon-to-be-not-so-permanent Player Character builds, WILL at least show remedial good faith intent; absent that, then it can be safely assumed that either Turbine has enough money that they are not interested in supporting their established customer base, or they are so busy counting their money that they have no time to bother with such trivial matters. Either way it makes my decision real easy, now doesn't it?

[Meetch1972]

No, Meech, I understand you very well. With all due respect, I know a red herring when I see one.
This is business, *not* personal.

Taseo,

It's their business to provide the game. As far as I'm concerned, it IS personal as it's a personal decision to play the game. I've given Turbine money too, no regrets. Chill out, man!

<stuff deleted for brevity> ...
Either way it makes my decision real easy, now doesn't it?

Some would eventually get bored/lose interest. Others will ragequit over matters large or small. Others adapt. Others endure. Yet other sad individuals live there regardless of whether they're "feeling the love".

It's your decision taro for whether the glass is half empty or half full, or to take a "nerfdate" as an opportunity in disguise. I spent the 10k+ points I bought on unlocking stuff, and earned all my +2 tomes in game, 'cos the numbers don't mean all that much to me and I made a conscious decision to budget on buying with my points predominantly things you cannot get for gold.

Do people read disclaimers these days? I'm having trouble finding an official software disclaimer with the intent to look for a phrase that says the DDO developers will never screw you over just for kicks. Maybe it's linked from the client, which isn't where I am right now... I dunno. In any case, I'm getting what I need out of the game, regardless of how big or small the carrots are on the end of particular poles. Ultimately, Eladrin gave us all a heads up, which probably wasn't required by anything in the rules/disclaimer. Kudos to the dev team for inviting feedback, and I'm hoping that this all means something to them. I would still like to think the devs listen to the constructive criticisms and ideas put forward, 'cos above all at the end of the day I'd like the game to stay interesting (or become even more so) and challenging.

I'll stop flogging this particular dead horse. Cheer all you want.

[AbsynthMinded]

Trap making and Grenades...

Remember that U5 is more than just attacking the lag monster and DPS nerfing.

Its nearly impossible to get a group that waits for a rogue to disarm traps any more, and now they are going to wait for rogues to set a mine? What the hell was Turbine thinking.. These 'Grenades' had better be fracking awesome.

Also as I had mentioned somewhere in the pages 70'ish, It doesn't matter how they change the game code or math, as long as the feel of the situations do not change. The conjecture and Test Server investigations, although appealing, are meaningless until they launch it to a live heavily populated lag burdened server. Then the real 'Testing' will begin and the player response will have real merits.

[IronClan]

Its nearly impossible to get a group that waits for a rogue to disarm traps any more, and now they are going to wait for rogues to set a mine? What the hell was Turbine thinking.. These 'Grenades' had better be fracking awesome.
.

And herein lies one of the games biggest problems from a new player standpoint IMO... (and I'm not talking about not having enough thrown explosive devices, I sure as hell hope they aren't called grenades... Oil flasks ok.).

[azrael4h]

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

I know exactly what speed I'm driving by the rpms the engine is running and what gear I'm in. For example in my daily driver, at 2900rpm in 6th gear, I am going 65mph. At 3100rpm, 70. I could do that back when I was 19, as I had a car (Honda, which are electrical nightmares and highly unreliable) which only occasionally had a working speedometer. I can also gauge my speed by mile markers as well, a bit more roughly. I use that as a test to see how close my speedometer is when testing a used car. It's a simple skill, one anyone who drives should know. Everyone in my family does the same thing, reads the tach to gauge speed.

I've also had to slow down by 5mph, and had the idiot behind me run up to my rear bumper, flipping me off and cursing. One tried to hit me later, coming around to pass, then jerking over into my lane before getting past. This is a common occurrence. Especially in the evening when coming home from work. I rarely manage to get enough speed to leave first gear in the evening on the highway.

And as someone who bleeds coffee instead of blood, I not only notice how low the cup is, I get annoyed.