Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[tolana]

so now that this has been tested on lama and shown to actually increase lag can we please just scrap the whole thing, take our time and come up with a fix that doesn't mess with specific build types.

[kingfisher]

so now that this has been tested on lama and shown to actually increase lag can we please just scrap the whole thing, take our time and come up with a fix that doesn't mess with specific build types.

like maybe just changing the few quests where lag is frequently present? crazy idea i know! much safer to change everything else but thechallenging protals, dumb-assed blades and giant chickens they are so proud of.

[SquelchHU]

like maybe just changing the few quests where lag is frequently present? crazy idea i know! much safer to change everything else but thechallenging protals, dumb-assed blades and giant chickens they are so proud of.

[IronClan]

It was your comment in an earlier thread about the same thing.

You obviously have me confused with someone else I can't imagine why I would agree with you about two weapons being equal to one weapon, a major part of why TWF is overpowered has to do with having twice the possible weapon effects/bursts/stats etc..

What game are you playing? Because it's not DDO, that's been a narrowly focused min max game from the start. Welcome to MMOs by the way. So glad you could join us.

I've been playing MMO's since before they coined the term MMORPG, let alone when it got shortened to MMO...

BTW I've seen nerfs that would make your head spin based on your reaction to this TFW thing. I subscribed to the MMO that popularized and personified the term nerf for 8 years. Until you take a bunch of characters that took YEARS to grind to the cap; through a nerf that entailed the rebuilding of the entire combat system (no joke) from the ground up you don't know squat about nerfs. Nerfs bigger than this TWF change were a MONTHLY occurrence.

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?

Fighters and Barbarians can stun the mob just fine without the +10. Most other classes don't have room for the feat, so they use weighted 5 for the auto stun since auto crit is the only way to contribute in epics. And now they can't do that. 1:20 dropped to 3:2,000.

Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.

I know someone's going to respond to that by referencing some other MMO. Thing is, most other MMOs don't invalidate whole classes.

I don't even need to say anything here... Those are obviously the comments of someone who has very limited experience outside of DDO.

[SquelchHU]

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Now the game is being flooded with people who are the anti thesis of end level grinding powergamers. Gimps with 0% fort, and that take 200% of their maximum HP from one of Harry's fireballs on Normal who think they know everything, and often have a huge hate on for powergamers. Primarily because they actually do know something, even if they don't know everything. Now I'm not saying that you are a 100 HP gimp, but going from the primary player type being the grind = content type they've been marketing to for a while anyways to the type that wants the whole game gimped down because they haven't figured out how to click the right arrow next to their Constitution score at character creation is not an improvement. Quite the opposite.

And while not all players that are new are incompetent in this regard, most are for the simple reason they did not do their research. Otherwise I'd have failed just as badly in the beginning... but nope, I knew that Con was not in fact a dumpstat. It's not rocket science.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?

These statements amuse me in so many ways.

Let's break down why you're wrong this time.

1: Even most powergamers do not care about Epic. I mean really, you firewall and perch, and you auto crit. Maybe you use other stuff if it either has a super high DC or no DC at all. It's actually a lot easier than non epics, you just have to follow the program. Not all characters can participate in this, but it's not like there is any real forethought involved. Just grind grind grind.

2: In games all about the numbers, it is not at all unreasonable to assume people are here for the numbers, simply due to the lack of any other possibilities they could be here for. DDO is actually very tame about this by MMO standards - most of the others break entire encounters down into a mathematical equation so that you know before you even start you have x time to do this or you die, so you just need your dps high enough to do it at least 1 second faster than x and you win, otherwise you lose.

3: Citing F2P (not Premium) players is an invalid argument. They'll get to level 7 in a day and likely leave. If we did regard them as a valid argument, the correct conclusion to draw is that the typical DDO player is a total jerk... which is not true, but those who have no attachment to the game do tend to just do whatever and leave without caring.

Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.

You fail at reading comprehension forever. Again.

Weighted's usefulness begins and ends at epic. You don't need auto stun anywhere else, DPS is faster or instant kills are faster. It is only in Epic you have huge piles of HP to grind down that you can't just bypass by say... instant death.

So yes, when something is only useful at level 20 it is indeed fair to discuss how it fares at 20.

Riddle me this - how many people here have even heard of Weighted prior to Epic? Yeah, you might have saw it before but it was like 'Ah ******, vendorbane +10' *sells to broker*

[ShortRanger]

Bug report. Ranged attack is not working, even on crates. I throw a returning throwing axe at breakables to save arrows.

Thread started on lamannia discussion and bug report submitted

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253581

[Engoril]

Your math is off. 10 attacks produces 11 attacks on average with a 10% chance. 20 attacks will produce 22 attacks on average.

There is a 10% chance to proc a double strike on each main hand attack. More attacks does equal more procs. And a 10% proc will average the same number of attacks as a 10% speed increase to attacks.

Think you are missing my point. You are correct for THF or S&B, but not TWF.

To use your example, currently if you are doing 20 attacks using TWF. Then 10 of those are main hand and 10 of those are off hand (numbers will vary depending on build, I'm thinking monk). With a 10% speed boost that increases to approximately 22 attacks (11 main hand, 11 offhand).

When the the U5 change comes in, those 20 attacks are nerfed down to 18 for the same time interval (10 main hand, and 8 offhand for monk). The previous 10% speed boost (for grandmaster wind) changes to a 10% double proc only on the main hand, so the 18 becomes 19 attacks ( 11 main hand, 8 offhand). So grandmaster air monks have effectively lost an extra attack by the change to a double strike chance, compared to other stances.

Is that any clearer?

(For convience and less complications, I am assuming GTWF using handwraps on a monk with constant haste so we don't have to worry about the other 15% speed boost of grandmaster air stance)

[tasebro]

Just want ya to take a breather and think about things objectively...
...

First and foremost Z, thanks for replying. I do appreciate that.
Frankly I read your post 4 times and still do not fully grasp where you are coming from but I guess I am just not smart/savvy enough to have a valid opinion, but that never stopped me before.

...Ease off on the hyperbole, your build doesn't have ranger levels so will lose less than 10%...snip...The point of game balance is that the game wouldn't be fun without it.
...

Then we shall see, wont we?

...
But thing is dude, viability is not based on how powerful the build is compared to the content, it's based on how powerful the build is compared to other builds.
How powerful builds are compared to the content is how difficult/easy the game is....A...B...C
...

That is one way to rationalize.

Cost-benefit curve is a better yardstick tho:
Some builds cost significantly more than the yield benefit, while other builds benefit significantly more than they cost, which is as it should be (well built/played 28 point toons are SUPPOSED to be "better" than poorly built/played 32 point toons)--but regardless, the selection choice MUST belong to the player; and the dice--with the *guaranteed* chance to "throw natural 20s" the dice represent--must NEVER be taken from the players' hands; that is a fundamental of what DnD is, so I use that deviation as my measure; if there is no deviation in builds, then that is a red flag that something is very wrong (look at W0W fer instance).
So some builds are just flat "better" than others, and how that deviation interfaces with player preferences is the key to marketing your content: people *want* "better". Efforts to "rebalance" ALL builds into one zero-sum equation is not "game balance", no "futile" is what it is, as well as bad marketing, since the inevitable end result is mediocrity (which there is plenty of to go around already; then again mediocrity does sell VERY well to the lowest common denominator, just look at W0W).

Genre dictates that capped Pures SHOULD be over-the-top in terms of benefit-cost ratio (a la tier 3 Tempest), that is what "heroic" genre is all about. So too, well built synergy-based Multis should be even MORE over-the-top (in their specialized "synergy" niche), since smart building investments should be *abundantly* rewarded, not punished or tweaked into irrelevance.
The key considerations pursuant to these are:
1. Well-built pure/multiclass toons being "over-the-top" is GOOD in general;
2. asymmetrical spread between ALL the classes is GOOD in general;
3. Well-built, synergy-based multiclass cheese** is GOOD in general (especially spectacular "speed" builds in the modern FPS tradition where "speed-is-life");
...so therefore normalization/nerfs to these considerations in the name of "game balance" is antithetical to what DnD is all about--genre must ALWAYS trump "game balance" (which does not exist anyway beyond a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy), so if adjustments must be made, they must be made in favor of the investing player, or not at all, unless absolutely unavoidable for practical reasons (i.e. the only available alternatives are much worse).

...
...
Until they bring haste boost in line >;-)

tl;dr I don't quite get what you're griping about since your build likely got buffed.
...

Correction: I am not "griping" YET, since nerfdate 5 has not hit YET, so no loss for anyone...YET.
But I do know that nerfing Tempest that hard bugs me greatly (I have tempest builds too, so do a lot of ppl).
I also dont like seeing rogues get nerfed AT ALL; I am noticing they have a hard enough time as it is, so if anything, I think rouges should have a MUCH better selection of potential "power options" than ANYONE else--I do have to qualify that by pointing out that I dont build anything with more than a rogue splash, so it could just be that I see a lot of rog players who are horrible at playing dedicated rog...still I am not feeling the love on that front.

[Aashrym]

Think you are missing my point. You are correct for THF or S&B, but not TWF.

To use your example, currently if you are doing 20 attacks using TWF. Then 10 of those are main hand and 10 of those are off hand (numbers will vary depending on build, I'm thinking monk). With a 10% speed boost that increases to approximately 22 attacks (11 main hand, 11 offhand).

When the the U5 change comes in, those 20 attacks are nerfed down to 18 for the same time interval (10 main hand, and 8 offhand for monk). The previous 10% speed boost (for grandmaster wind) changes to a 10% double proc only on the main hand, so the 18 becomes 19 attacks ( 11 main hand, 8 offhand). So grandmaster air monks have effectively lost an extra attack by the change to a double strike chance, compared to other stances.

Is that any clearer?

(For convience and less complications, I am assuming GTWF using handwraps on a monk with constant haste so we don't have to worry about the other 15% speed boost of grandmaster air stance)

In your example you are using 100% offhand proc rate. Using that example, the extra attack from the double also would have 100% chance to proc the extra offhand. Placing us at 22 attacks again. Double strikes also proc offhand attacks. That might what is throwing you off a bit.

A 10% double strike is the same same as a 10% speed bonus,which something you stated it was not. 10% double strike does give the same number of attacks as a speed bonus would for the same percentages.

That has nothing to do the 100% proc rate vs 80% proc rate listed above. It's the reduced proc rate, not the speed bonus that was translated to double strike causing your lower number of attacks.

Does that make what I stated any clearer?

[Kaish]

Hullo,

First of all, I must admit, I did not read all the posts on the subject, so sorry if I say the same things as others did, but here is my little opinion:

Nerfing Tempest or TWF is missing the boat. Why? Simply because the problem could be reduce (probably not resolve, but still) by simply making Sword & Shield fighting style more appealing. Right now, its a joke, even with Enhancement like Stalwart Defense. The Ac gain and the bonus to the stat is way too low to make a difference and you get that awful slow thingy that make you vulnarable...

The other thing, is simply to make THF more appealing. Give more damage with that big sword.. more powerful glancing blow, a chance to knock someone out... I dont know... but something...

The last Shroud I was in, all the melee were TWF, except 1... So that is were your calculation overcharged problem is...

Make the other type of fighting more appealing, there will be less TWF.
Simple as that.

No one will be unhappy.
That is all

[FluffyCalico]

Double strikes also proc offhand attacks.

It has been said several times that Double strikes do NOT proc offhands.

[IronClan]

Now the game is being flooded with people who are the anti thesis of end level grinding powergamers. Gimps with 0% fort, and that take 200% of their maximum HP from one of Harry's fireballs on Normal who think they know everything, and often have a huge hate on for powergamers.

LOL so much anger over such trivial things... Not sure who you're lashing out at here, it's clearly not me obviously but seriously maybe take a break go out and enjoy some spring time or something

Let's break down why you're wrong this time.

1: Even most powergamers do not care about Epic.

2: In games all about the numbers,

3: Citing F2P (not Premium) players is an invalid argument.

1.... has absolutely nothing to do with proving that most players are powergamers. I agree about Epic and it's even MORE reason why DDO players shouldn't be focused ONLY on end game because without including Epic you have what? 2 level 20 quests and a couple raids to do over and over? Oh boy! let me zipp past all this lame low and mid level content so I can get to where the game REALLY starts...... um.... petering out... and um getting extra grindy and repetitious...

2....... is an assertion by you that doesn;'t seem to bear any relevance to proving that MMO's are filled with mostly min/maxers. It has a lot more to do with your perspective which you seem to think is universally shared... RPG's are only "all about numbers" for rules lawyers and min maxers, two types of player who were almost mythical in their rarity in my 30 years of DM'ing P&P, but appearently a huge number of them were in your experience...

I'd have to guess you're projecting your own viewpoint onto others, and I'd guess that because you're doing that exact thing right here in this thread.

Seriously the kind of player who went full tilt min/max in D&D were the ones even D&D players called "nerds"....

Go play NWN... you might play that game for months without running into ONE player who wants to tell you how "gimp" you are because you're using a non-optimal weapon... In fact having played it for years I can't recall ever hearing the word used there...

3.... Is an arbitrary distinction by you that has no rational basis to exist.... just "welcome to Squelch-land whatever I say is good enough for me, so it must be a fact..." just like the assertion above it...

Again how the heck do you reconcile the number of people running around with sub optimal gear if the majority of people are min maxing powergamers? Oh that's right you have to arbitrarily exclude F2P players then you have to assume that all the sub optimals are F2P, and then you have to invent a behavior (quitting on the first day) for F2P players that is pure fiction. All to justify your world view?

You fail at reading comprehension forever. Again.

Good grief how old are you?

Weighted's usefulness begins and ends at epic.
Riddle me this - how many people here have even heard of Weighted prior to Epic? Yeah, you might have saw it before but it was like 'Ah ******, vendorbane +10' *sells to broker*

Yeah I have a lowbie that uses SB with weighted weapons... so there you go... You've just learned a valuable lesson, don't couch your arguments in absolute terms that only require a single exception to send sinking to the bottom.

I get that you are only are capable of thinking in terms of what's uber at end game high level. That's fine for you, but stop projecting your ludicrously narrow vision of the game onto everyone else...

Oh and BTW the reading comprehension comments? Look just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they failed to understand what you wrote I know this may be hard for you to grasp but you might want to clear that up.

[Aashrym]

It has been said several times that Double strikes do NOT proc offhands.

It was said additional attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks. It makes sense that offhand attacks that were procced by double strike could not produce another doublestrike; or that a double strike does not proc another doublestrike.

It makes sense that a double strike can proc an off hand to maintain the correlated speed bonus. If that is the case (it should not be) then we'll see how this really does go live.

Any other comments will be on the Lamannia forums on that topic.

Edit: to clarify, whether it does go live or not, I believe the double strike should proc the additional offhand.

[mjrepro]

It was said additional attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks.

You said it right there, "Additional Attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks." If an offhand is a proc, and a doublestrike is a proc, then a doublestrike cannot proc an offhand, because that would be a proc proccing a proc.

[Aashrym]

You said it right there, "Additional Attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks." If an offhand is a proc, and a doublestrike is a proc, then a doublestrike cannot proc an offhand, because that would be a proc proccing a proc.

It was also said each main hand attack could proc an off hand attack and the double strike procs a main hand attack. I may have misinterpreted that, we'll see. There is still time before this does go live for the final results.

I thought I had seen a post stating the main hand attack could proc the offhand, but I cannot find it now.

[Calogrenant]

Alright, cut the bull with the double strike equals haste argument. It's flawed. And it deserves a whole thread of its own, might come up with it later.

Let's get this clear:
A 10% chance to proc an extra swing is definitely NOT the same as a 10% speed increase.

The magic word here, in case you missed it: Chance

You see, that word there means that you might always swing an extra time, or, that you might never actually throw said extra swing. On average, you should be swinging an extra hit on 1 out of 10 attacks. So you can come up with a nice statistics model showing how probabilities work, and explain in many cultivated and detailed and also, why not, arrogant words how in theory it should have the same effect on your dps, but at the same time there's no way you could dismiss the fact that...

...we got certainty replaced by randomness.

We went from having a 100% chance of having an extra attack on 1 out of 10 swings, to a 1 in 10 probability of throwing an extra swing each time you attack. Not the same thing.

Allow me to give you a colorful, sarcastic yet perfect example of this same thing translated to a real life situation.

Let's say you drive home from work early one day, and you find your house's door locked up with heavy chains.

A rather large sign on your door reads:
..."Hello! Since the resources on sewage and trash treatment were low, the electricity, telephone, freshwater and cable providers are having trouble investing in expanding their networks, and thus losing efficiency in their services, and since we also noticed that you only spend 10 out of 24 hours a day in your place, we decided that each time you want to spend an hour in your house, you'll roll a d24, and on 10 out of 24 times, you get to spend that hour at home! and every hour you're not there, someone else will be, using your bathroom, heating and cooling equipments, tv, in this way saving us all from having to invest in more pipelines or cable installations! And, after all, it's the same, right? You see, -and please follow us on this one- before, you used to be home 10 hours out of 24, now, on average, you'll get to spend the same time! In the end, the results are the same, nobody can argue it, right? We'll be improving the neighborhood in this way, we're awesome, thank you for your understanding and, specially, thank you for your taxes!!!..."

Then you start thinking - Yeah it's the sameOH wait! No it's not! If I roll an hour at home, but I'm at work I don't really need it! (got a double strike proc on a useless mob), and also, I need to sleep and that means needing to win 8 hours straight! (need to be able to always have that extra hit every ten in this raid!).

That's because in the end, under these circumstances, only a few times the need will coincide with the opportunity of satisfying said need. Which, yes, means this is another completely different set of probabilities.

Hope I managed to point out the big difference.

Now, you might be one of those guys who like to spend hours in a Casino and actually make a living out of it, and hence you're actually happy with this change, but, maybe you should consider that those out there -like me- who like to put effort in what they do, and in this way end up having certain control over the product of what we do, definitely never like to have certainty replaced by randomness.

Thank you, may you have a nice day.

[Natashaelle]

Bug report. Ranged attack is not working, even on crates. I throw a returning throwing axe at breakables to save arrows.

Thread started on lamannia discussion and bug report submitted

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253581

Sounds like the ammo bug -- switching to different ammo usually fixes it, but YES it's annoying when that one hits you...

[Taimasan]

How about instead of a TWF nerf, lets use some of that WB and F2P money and upgrade the servers and equipment we use to play on to cut out on the lag. Cause there are otherr MMO's with alot more players in a instance/raid and alot of movement and calculations going on with no lags. Just sayin.

[Macushi]

Agreed with many posts here. Pls dont change TWF combat mechanisms, is making too much a mess.
And what's the benefit of all this, perhaps NOTHING.
Could you pls change those laggish instances, portals, blades etc...
just my comment among many others

[Grimtooth333]

like maybe just changing the few quests where lag is frequently present? crazy idea i know! much safer to change everything else but thechallenging protals, dumb-assed blades and giant chickens they are so proud of.

Amen brother.... +1.