Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[ShortRanger]

I just changed weapons sets while leveling up and my backstabbing axe is now on my off hand.

How will the changes affect sneak attacking when a backstabing weapon as in the off hand?

[testing1234]

Suprised at the miss chance, esp if you have GTWF, not suprised at the game feel. Warchanter by chance? Anything new combat wise for songs?

no change in bards, no new songs.
single new lvl1 spell 1d4 sonic to 5d4 max sonic damage and daze until hit by fort save casters get the sonic spell also.

[mjrepro]

So after trying out what they have done to the TWF on my monk on the test server, I am not too sad.

It is slower, that is for sure, and they need to address that issue. Give me back my speed on my monk is my first reaction, but this will also mean I can use WHATEVER stance I want, and not feel I have to stick to one particular stance.
Now I know you guys will say I could do that now, but not really, Windstance was so overpowered compared to the rest of the stances, that it was the only one it made since to use.

It is a bit slower I think, but not too noticeably so for the DPS'ing down a mob, and I think that if you changed back the Bauble to a Major Mnemonic, it would balance some things out.

Contrary to what everyone might be yelling, I am liking it so far, and want to say thank you guys for taking bold stabs at balancing some things out.

[Zaal]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.

They tried that once and the result was an agonizingly slow combat, much more so for lower level characters. I don't think they will slow down the attack animations again.

Thanks for responding... Not really suggesting a drop in speed for animation but instead the actual combat system - and if that means to slow the animation too; well, so be it.

Again, slowing down the combat speed and upping the xp should provide a relative balance.

Perhaps out of scope but in addition to a slow down in combat speed, we might also see a reduction in hit points... say, if combat is slowed by 10% , monster mp can also be dropped by 10%.

Also, I recall that animation speed drop and I think the biggest complaint back then was the visual aspect... things felt slower because they looked slower.

Been a few months since I played but if it still holds true, i recall that the animation was a tad "off" so really, a little more "off" shouldn't be to bad

[Ollathir]

So far only two hits on the general feel of the combat feedback in Lamania.

Though a bit more here http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252668 . Does anyone have anything positive to add? The positive feedback that I've seen so far seems to be masked, albeit interesting about guild housing updates.

[Necron7]

I have been playing in the test server for a bit, and my ranger is at least 20% slower dealing damage. This is causing me to take alot more damage making my toon way harder to solo. I was already taking alot of damage in groups now it just makes me want to delete the toon

AS for everyone saying that rangers have spells to even them out is making a bad joke. They have not tried to heal a 12 ranger with over 200hp using moderate heal. Just how many spell points do you think rangers have? I would rather now have the AC to prevent the damage from happening. Now I'm just stuck with a subpar fighter wannabe with light armor and low HP

I now regret even making this toon or my TWF fighter. The only melee choice now is the THF Barb; oh did I say "choice" silly me.

I do not wish to put any further effort into these toons if they are going to implement this nerf. I want a YES or a NO from the Devs.
If yes then I am deleting my toons, canceling my subscription and moving on to a new game.

[avery61]

I have been playing in the test server for a bit, and my ranger is at least 20% slower. This is causing me to take alot more damge making my toon way harder to solo. I was already taking alot of damage in groups now it just makes me want to delete the toon

AS for everyone saying that rangers have spells to even them out is making a bad joke. They have not tried to heal a 12 ranger with over 200hp using moderate heal. Just how many spell points do you think rangers have? I would rather now have the AC to prevent the damage from happening. Now I'm just stuck with a subpar fighter wannabe with light armor and low HP

I now regret even making this toon or my TWF fighter. The only melee choice now is the THF Barb; oh did I say "choice" silly me.

I do not wish to put any further effort into these toons if they are going to implement this nerf. I want a YES or a NO from the Devs.
If yes then I am deleting my toons, canceling my subscription and moving on to a new game.

Same. If the Ranger is gonna be nerfed I'm just gonna move on. Rangers just don't have the selection of spells and spell points to make up for losing TWF.

[Dim_Mak]

do you realized that you just agreed to 20% slower melee combat?

i agreed on what he said about investing in our toons.
i don't want 20% slower melee and i don't want changes to TWF.
If so, like many other said I am canceling my sub and moving on.
I don't want that my gaming and relaxing turns into a **** frustration because someone whined to devs how the game is not balanced.
Cheers

[zealous]

According to Squelch's numbers TWF DPS will be lower by about 16-17%.

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

[tasebro]

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

Well and good for pure-class TWFers, what are the numbers for custom multi-class hybrid builds?
All multiclass TWFers are clearly going to take a very serious hit to DPS potential, effectively wiping out any useful pre-U5 build synergy (i.e. feat, and skill enhancements, and most importantly attack speed boosts).
Also, if DPS is gimped -10% to -15%, then that means fights will last ~111% to 118% longer than they now do, and so will consume proportionally more defensive resources spread over a longer time--the lighter classes like rangers, rogues, monks and especially multiclass hybrids that rely on those resources to stay in the fight will fall further and further behind the power curve over the longer fight times, since U5 will remove any chance of hitting with enough DPS advantage to put the mobs down before the heals run out, or haste-boosting TWF at the critical point to turn the tide they will be out of the fight before the fight is over.
Lacking the heavy AC/DR, lighter multiclass build hit points will run out long before the any TWF DPS advantage can reliably end the fight, and since TWF conveniently consumes feat/enhancement slots that could otherwise mitigate (or reverse) this situation, then it seems clear that U5 invalidates multiclass TWF.

Update 5 kills the two main synergy avenues that make multiclass DPS builds work: 1. dependable speed, and 2. the consistent landing of reliable hits enough to back that speed up and get results.

So what do we multiclass TWF players get in return out of this?

[jadenkorr]

I suggest that instead of making the offhand a chance to proc, a simple -x/-y damage to both hands, which will decrease as more feats are taken, for example, -4/-2 at the start, -2/-0 with GTWF, exact numbers up to the devs to decide.

This would reflect the weakness of the two weapon fighting style, which is that you cannot put the full power of both arms behind a single attack or block. As an objective is to decrease TWF dps, -x/-y is imo, a more palatable alternative to the currently proposed change. The devs could calculate the break even point where a -x/-y to damage will have the same decrease to damage as a 80% chance to offhand proc.

Why do I suggest this? Currently, attack bonus serves as a rough indicator of offensive weapon skill level, while AC serves as a rough indicator of defensive prowess. And as your character levels up, his base attack bonus increases, indicating an increase in combat experience, hence an increase in skill level.

A Level 20 character should not have a chance to miss on a CR1 Zombie. He will however, still suffer the same lack of power behind his blows regardless of whether he is hitting a CR1 Zombie or a CR20++ Pitfiend. Or to put it another way, a significantly more skilled character should be hitting his opponent. More skilled characters will create openings and take advantage of their opponents' loopholes in their defenses. A level 20 character will just demolish a CR1 Zombie, he should not miss at all, thats just silly.

Edit: On a sidenote, could the devs comment on whether they will reduce mob HP to offset the DPS nerfs please?

[Rasczak]

The speed of combat does not feel right. Especially considering that a lvl 10 standing next to me attacked at the same speed, it felt horrid

[zealous]

Well and good for pure-class TWFers, what are the numbers for custom multi-class hybrid builds?

They go under Rest:.

All multiclass TWFers are clearly going to take a very serious hit to DPS potential, effectively wiping out any useful pre-U5 build synergy (i.e. feat, and skill enhancements, and most importantly attack speed boosts).

No. Synergies are still there, dps potential is still high compared to other options.

Also, if DPS is gimped -10% to -15%, then that means fights will last ~111% to 118% longer than they now do, and so will consume proportionally more defensive resources spread over a longer time

If this is relevant, it would imply that you currently absolutely under no circumstances can complete quests without a party composed solely of twinked to the teeth max dps builds. Since that currently is far from true, it is more or less irrelevant.

--the lighter classes like rangers, rogues, monks and especially multiclass hybrids that rely on those resources to stay in the fight will fall further and further behind the power curve over the longer fight times

Conjecture. Additionally the classes you mention do have resources increasing survivability. They will still be where they currently are on the power curve since the power curve is only defined in relation to other alternative builds.

, since U5 will remove any chance of hitting with enough DPS advantage to put the mobs down before the heals run out, or haste-boosting TWF at the critical point to turn the tide they will be out of the fight before the fight is over.

Groundless speculation. There is no reasonable indication that this will happen.

Lacking the heavy AC/DR, lighter multiclass build hit points will run out long before the any TWF DPS advantage can reliably end the fight, and since TWF conveniently consumes feat/enhancement slots that could otherwise mitigate (or reverse) this situation, then it seems clear that U5 invalidates multiclass TWF.

Groundless speculation. There is no reasonable indication that this will happen.

Update 5 kills the two main synergy avenues that make multiclass DPS builds work: 1. dependable speed, and 2. the consistent landing of reliable hits enough to back that speed up and get results.

Those two avenues will remain, rebalanced but essentially the same.

So what do we multiclass TWF players get in return out of this?

A more balanced game =)

It all depends on if you view the glass as half full or as half empty. It doesn't change 2wf to being worse than e.g. nuking or 2hf, it's still better. Since it is kind of difficult to argue that it should be exactly x better than y, saying the change is bad just because it brings it lower than it currently is not a good argument against it.

Currently, bringing a S&B or a no twitch 2h into the group will generally decrease group efficacy. With the changes this will be lessened.

So you can view the change as rebalancing from high single target dps towards damage mitigation and AoE damage.

Simply put, it will make alternate group compositions more viable. You will still be able to just stack dps and heal through though, it will likely still be optimal.
...
Personally, I think that the capacity to heal is somewhat unbalancing and also trivializes much challenge. If something were done to healing, like e.g. granting diminishing returns or giving large increases to cooldowns, judging from the outrage at the slight rebalance of 2wf, the forums would implode.

It wouldn't break the game if done right, it might very likely make things more challenging and thereby fun.

[SquelchHU]

No, it would break the game.

When you make every encounter all about auto attacking the huge pile of HP and being mass healed through it than changing any component therein breaks the whole encounter.

Less damage means more heals which means more resources burned.
Less effective heals means more heals which means more resources burned.
Slower heals means more deaths which means less damage.

In a way it is fortunate encounters are not more dynamic, as the lag that will exist before and after nerfdate 5 would prevent any form of dynamic reactions anyways. However for this same reason this one basic formula becomes the crux of everything. The cornerstone of content if you will.

Doesn't look like they're retracting nerfdate 5 either. Pity, once they got past the silly level 5 quest thing it actually seemed to have some potential... now I'd much rather the entire thing just get deleted and they try again next time than have the whole game gimped out from under me.

But that won't happen either, so maybe in about 3 years they'll get a clue and fix it back so I can renew my sub and continue playing.

[thomassmith2]

I’m sorry if this has been said before but I want to add my voice to those others who are concerned that this change is unnecessarily complicated. As I understand it the goal is to reduce the number of checks, in particular proximity checks, caused by two game mechanics (Two Weapon Fighting and Effects that increase attack speed such as monk air stance, the fighter capstone, and paladin zeal) so as to reduce lag.

I cannot see why the off hand attacks (but not necessarily the animation) for the two weapon fighting feats can’t occur simultaneously with their associated primary hand attack (the first, second and thirds attacks for the TWF, improved TWF and greater TWF feats respectively). If the target is close enough to be hit by the primary hand attack it is close enough to be hit by the off hand so there is no need for a proximity check for the off hand attack. This removes the need to change the mechanics of the TWF feats and maintains some consistency with the Pen and paper version of D&D that DDO is based on.

I also cannot see why the second problem of effects that increase attack speed needs a whole new mechanic – the “double strike”. The result of each of these effects is to increase damage output. Would it not be simpler to replace some of these effects with a bonus to damage e.g. replace the Fighter Capstone with a bonus to damage with all weapons, make zeal grant a bonus to damage etc.

[r3dl4nce]

Less damage means more heals which means more resources burned.

which means more shop SP potions...

[DToNE]

A loss in attack speed will be traumatic for most player players in the game for the price of reducing lag issues. What this does is make hard quests even harder and make speed specialization seem even less special. While the melee will feel this, the healers will feel this as well as prolonged combat requires more SP, making casters more attractive than before. This promotes the growth of casters, but significantly reduces the amount of players.

So yes, adjusting the attack speed will reduce the lag traumatically not by calculations alone, but from players leaving the game as well. This will reduce the amount of quests that can be done.

The lag issue seems to be the amount of information that flows into the server and responds back to the players. Absurd amount of calculations flowing into the server and has to be reproduced to all players that need to see the calculation. While the attack speed change would apply some lag fix, similar effects can be done by adding slower but more effective weapons for a boss or for portal beating. Examples of this would be like the meteors in the Abbot Raid: where the meteors can be used to cause some hesitation to the Abbot.

Not only will this reduce the amount of calculations needed, but adds more "role" for the sake of role playing. More Examples would be:

Shroud - Portal Disrupting throwing item; potentially no weapon proficiency, but portals don't have AC anyways.
Vision of Destruction - Demon Slaying Arrows; give more reason to do damage for ranged class which will use much less calculations anyway.


Basically, by promoting ranged combat by increasing the attack power, you also fix some lag issues and increase the amount of people willing to use ranged weapons. Which promotes that which needs some attention and prevents player dissatisfaction. I don't believe anyone will be unhappy about a lag fix and better possibilities for ranged combat.

[Bolo_Grubb]

So any combat feedback for U5, since Lama is open? Much rather see feedback based on actual results. May even get the Devs to get back here since its their post.

The biggest problem with testing the changes on Lama, is that Lama never has the same server load as the live servers. There simply is never the large number of people on lama as there is on Sarlona (the live server I play on) or any of the other live servers. As this is also a major factor of the lag. Isn't it?

I know when I do a raid at 10am I get way less lag and way less DPS lag then I do at 10pm.

[Theolin]

now I know why the nerfed haste a while back .....

[tasebro]

They go under Rest:.


No. Synergies are still there, dps potential is still high compared to other options.
...irrelevant...[snip]
...Conjecture....[snip]
...Groundless speculation...[snip]
...rebalanced but essentially the same...[snip]
...A more balanced game =)...[snip]

...So you can view the change as rebalancing from high single target dps towards damage mitigation and AoE damage.
...
...
Personally, I think that the capacity to heal is somewhat unbalancing and also trivializes much challenge. If something were done to healing, like e.g. granting diminishing returns or giving large increases to cooldowns, judging from the outrage at the slight rebalance of 2wf, the forums would implode.

It wouldn't break the game if done right, it might very likely make things more challenging and thereby fun.

Well, zealous, here is some more irrelevant conjecture for you to dismiss:

Specifically, my current main multiclass DPS toon can self-heal, as well as effectively tank AND deal adequate TWF DPS resulting from qualifying for warforged, kensei (unarmed) with monk sauce and a side of UMD (rogue).
Come nerfdate 5 (good one squelch) I am going to loose all the nice stacked speed boosts I now have access to (arrived at via multi-class build "speed" synergies, which ARE going away), and therefore a good chunk of practical DPS output potential (looks to me to be about 30-35% drop), therefore turning what is an effective sub-optimal "speed" build, into just another broken liability, therefore the bulk of that toons' current usefulness TO ME is going to vanish.

Furthermore, your dismissals miss the key point, I PAID for that specific utility on THAT toon, not for your sense of 'game balance', which is frankly neither needed, nor wanted
(...fact being I don't give a flip about 'game balance'; if i did, I would not invest my time building such toons, I would just play WoW now wouldn't I?).
What I do want is the return on the resouces I invested in my toon--which I am currently getting--no more, no less. Since I am loosing all my stacked speed boosts, taking a significant hit on my DPS output with nothing to compensate that loss then that is not "game balance", its just a nerf that invalidates what is currently a viable build.