Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[zealous]

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "twitching" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

If you were a doctor and wanted to convince your patient with a bleeding wound that stuffing the wound with mouldy bread would make them better, how do you explain it to them?

This isn't the case of a new game and a new feature. It's the case of what is. What we have is a large group of players having spent time with the feature saying that it makes the game more fun.

The best I could come up with, personally, is this:

I would fire you on the spot. But then again, you're not being quite honest since you're not trying to "sell" twitch but rather present twitch in a bad light.

"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Oscillation Acceleration.'

Not a very good convincing name, I'd call it "Real combat".

Whenever a character moves slightly back and forth, he gains a +10% bonus to attack speed that it cannot have if standing still.

This is not quite how twitch works. You might get that impression if your only experience is from watching the vids of Shade etc. Generally while twitching, rocking back and forth would be counterproductive since maneuvering into a advantageous position would be beneficial.

Look up a player that really can twitch on the move, or just take a moment to think about how much you can move between the swings of the moving attack, or try it out yourself.

Despite being counterintuitive

Actually, it's quite intuitive. Have you tried swinging a heavy object using only your arms?
Try it. Now try doing it while rotating your upper body while keeping the position of your feet locked. Then try doing it while rotating your entire body, and your feet e.g. by raising the heels from the ground. And finally take a step and swing.

It's about shifting balance and creating momentum, that's easier if you move a bit.

and a bit goofy,

Actually, apart from the axe moving flick o da wrist attack, it doesn't look that bad, kinda similar to the fourth standing animation, way better than the third standing animation.

I think it would be good for the game because it rewards players with the skills

Rewarding skill should be good, yah?

and patience to perform this overly repetitive act, over and over again.

It is more repetetive than holding the autoattack button? No it isn't.
Twitch requires some measure of timing, to make it work well and be fun you need to use the time of the moving attack to maneuver. It is highly variable though it is limited by your timing since missing the beat will launch you into the slower parts of the standing chain.

Gameplay test will show that most players don't like it, but they are not the targeted demographic.

I have seen accounts of players not quite being able to do it. The majority of accounts have been from players saying that it's more fun and makes the game more enjoyable.

Some people might not care for grinding the shroud, some people might not care for learning to twitch.

It is quite easy to get a grasp of the basics, just carry a 2h weapon and practice a few swings while waiting for player x to get back from his bio/arrive at the quest/join the group. Actually making it work in dynamic combat is a whole different beast, that takes some time but it's fun once you learn it.

It's aimed at very hardcore players, who will like being special - having both the patience and skill to do something most would not do."

That's just silly. I'm casual, I can twitch.

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

If twitching was like that aye, however, it is not.

The number is voluntarily off because Aesop said "twitching" should be "effective and a benefit without decimating the competition" so I put a number so would be closer to the ballpark she'd be aiming for, rather than the current number (whatever it is).

Wrong. That number is acctually fairly close though possibly a overestimation.

With glancing blows while moving, twitching brings a too large benefit. Without it though it is fairly close.

Twitching grants a ~25% attack speed advantage, glancing blows grants 0.3 times (base damage +30). So +15% base damage + 4.5 + effects for twitching.
---
You are really missing the important point though. Irregardless of attack speed increase or not. Twitching makes it possible to maneuver without loosing efficiency. If you're 2wf or S&B, moving in any way generally results in a loss of efficiency. This is bad since one of DDOs greatest strengths is the dynamic combat.

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "standing still" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Inertia Acceleration.'

I know we have this engine supporting dynamic combat with movement, reactions etc. But my idea is to make standing still advantageous so the game becomes more boring.

[stz]

If you were...

win.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't know if Green Steel's design cause a greater load or not. Do you?

Player testing has strongly indicated that it does. Eladrin's comment about possibly needing to change greensteel is reinforcement.

However, there is no good technical reason why greensteel would have any effect- if it does matter, it must be because of improper programming that can be corrected without touching the game design.

[Calebro]

so basically a lv 20 rogue post update 5 with the three TWF feats will attack at a slower rate, then a lv20 rogue without any of the TWF feats pre update 5 (100%/80%vs 100%/100%)

This is just flat out incorrect.
If you're going to rant, having your facts straight would really help.

[Dazalarian]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.

This is spot on, every word of it.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Camarde]

Shroud with high twf dps not always lag, your problem is too improve your server.
TWF is better against 1 single target, THF is better agaisnt several target.
TWF cost more stat,feat and gear, THF is easier to do and stuff.
Things are balanced IMO stop to nerf things for no reason.
DA was an epic fail to fix lag but a great success to decrease the fun.
This change will be the same.
This will be a reduction to the variety of build viable, that have already been seriously reduce.
Nerf everythings that is good dont make sense, balanced the game by giving different option to all build.
Change things without giving a free and easy to rebuild stuff and character, TR take lot of time, GS cant be deconstructed.

Bad changes.

[Blktom]

My opinion....

Monks do not have the Fighter BAB in 3.5, so remove the 'balanced BAB'. Let them keep the stances and strikes.

Increase the GTWF feat Dex requirment to 19, like in table top.

These are the 3 main fighting types... All 3 of these styles should be balanced in DDO like they are balanced in 3.5.

THW- 1 swing for bigger damage, no shield
TWF- 2 swings = THW damage, but both have to hit. Reduced BAB and no Shield.
Sword and Board- 1 swing for half the THF damage, +7-9 AC from Shield.

Obviously, if your using a THW with your Ranger, your not using your strengths, but the 4 'fighter' classes are all based on these 3 styles of combat. In this game, people make different styles than I might list, but that is personal preference. What I list are the 'classic' styles with each type.


Ranger...
Cons: d8 HD, Light Armor, care about 4 stats
Pros: TWF with no Dex requirment, spells, 6 skill points per lvl
Melee fighting style: TWF

Barb...
Cons: Medium armor, Rage gives a -2(plus) to AC
Pros: d12 HD, 4 skill points per lvl, Rage
Melee fighting style: THW

Fighter...
Cons: 2 Skill points per lvl
Pros: Feats, special fighter only feats, Heavy Armor, Tower Shield
Melee fighting style: All three

Paladin...
Cons: 2skill points per lvl, care about 5 stats
Pros: Spells, Heavy Armor, Smite & LOH, Grace
Melee fighting style: Sword and Board

As you can see, all should be balanced. They should be as balanced in DDO as they are in D&D 3.5.

[Obrezze]

Why not put better hardware?

It costs a bit but will work better

Nerfing TWF sucks too much

[Macushi]

Why not put better hardware?
Nerfing TWF sucks too much

Rewrite combat mechanics?
Get better servers - speed to the traffic?

The game is working just fine in Europe, basically no lag that matters.
So....you have it there, why mess it up here?

[Razcar]

holy **** batman! my drow dex build ranger is required to have an epic docent now!

It should fit, with enough vaseline & violence

[Aesop]

So, after a little thought, completely negating Glancing Blows on moving seems like a bad idea to me.

Instead can we just reduce the chance of a glancing blow while moving instead?

I know it already has 50% chance... but can we lower that further?

Can we drop that down to 25% chance instead?

can we toss in a few buffs to this update to balance the feeling of NERF... I mean I don't really mind most of the nerfs over all, but I also like the idea that other styles may become more viable. Simply nerfing THF and TWF doesn't make S&B actually more viable, it actually makes it so you need more TWF or THF to maintain current output.

or something like that

Also adding in a few buffs would ease the tension a little.

Consider using the Proc chance to add Shield Bash attacks to the normal attack chain. Also consider adding Shield Block on hit Proc chance

Aesop

[Sinni]

This it 5-th time I read Eladrins post. Not even a word about eSoS nerf. Much less in the next update.

Do you want to discuss that again?

[krogyy]

as it seems that STWF made it on Lamnia i would like to suggest a tweak of that feat:

make the prerequisites GTWF and either 15 BAB or 19 dex

this will make it accessible to all full BAB classes AND finesse builds.
as it should be, imho

[lordic]

Let me see if i understand correctly, before a paladin (or fighter) with full twf line would have 100% of off hand attacks and now 55%? so, you are nerfing off hand attacks 45% for the paladin (or fighter)
Besides, the 10% double attack now will only affect the main hand, before a 10% attack speed increased main hand and off hand attack speed... i m ok with consolidating check for lag controlling, but why the nerf?

Full twf should have 100% off hand attacks, and double attack chance should procs for main hand and off hand (depending on how many twf feats the char has, so for a full twf char it will proc for both attacks 100%)

Keep ranger tempest bonus a 10% to double attack as paladin zeal and fighter capstone, if you want you can give extra 5% for tempest II and III...

ranger tempests have less hp then pallys and ftrs...do you think they shouldnt get like a increased dps output or something?if not who in their right mind would make a ranger?

[R0cksteady]

as it seems that STWF made it on Lamnia i would like to suggest a tweak of that feat:

make the prerequisites GTWF and either 15 BAB or 19 dex

this will make it accessible to all full BAB classes AND finesse builds.
as it should be, imho

I would sign this petition. Would hate to have to put MORE points into dex than I already have to for GTWF. So this would be good for fighters who have better places to put points than dex, and good for rogues and monks that don't have the BAB but could build for finesse builds.

[R0cksteady]

ranger tempests have less hp then pallys and ftrs...do you think they shouldnt get like a increased dps output or something?if not who in their right mind would make a ranger?

Rangers get spells over fighters for self buffing, AND versatility to make them good with bows while still optimizing DPS with TWF.

[Scraap]

The more I read this thread, the more I think: what about weapon proc immunities? Sure, DPS is important a lot of the time, but when it comes to Red/Purple boss fights, it's ALL about DPS. Why?

Well the boss is immune to my wounding/weakening/etc weapons. A CR X boss is immune where a CR X trash mob in another area/quest isn't. Why?

Presumably because the boss fight would be over too soon without the immunity. So throw 10k hp at the boss, make them immune to all but holy/bane damage (and a couple of other effects like destruction and curse) and make DPS the way to draw out a fight. That seems to have been the logic so far. But does the immunity have to be a COMPLETE immunity?

Perhaps on a level playing field TWF SHOULD DO LESS DPS than THF in general- but this would be offset by the increased number of weapon effect procs that TWF could throw at the boss. My dual puncturing rapiers should most certainly occasionally drain a constitution point, but us potential boss-slayers aren't immune to this!

I'd suggest something like this to level the playing field a bit:
* letting bosses have restoration potions/spells/abilities with suitable concentration checks but remove the blanket immunity altogether, or
* making the PC roll an extra attack roll against the boss' AC, or if balance requires it, AC + 10, or require that confirmation to be a 20, or give them a resist roll, or whatever, to get the effect through once in a while - and just as with players the boss stats would regen over time during the fight.

With either of the above, boss' max HP could be lowered along with overall DPS totals. The high attack rate toons could live with their lowered attack rates and even damage since they would actually be capable of whittling down boss stats in a way at least similar to trash mobs.

Think of the elation if someone actually managed to vorpal the boss with the odds of confirming such a thing set to many thousands to one against! "Hmmm... do we do the charm/whittle thing with the Hound, or do we charge it and hope someone gets lucky - but probably wipe?" "Uh oh, the trash mobs have trashed the rest of the party. I'm the barb, the hound will spot me at any moment. Switch to vorpal and CHEEAARRRRRRRRGE!" If it works...

Yes it would need to be balanced/tuned, but it immediately removes the importance of pure DPS party members, while not making them useless at the same time. Worth thinking about?

Not to fall back on a meme-of-the-month, but THIS^^^^ I'd spend APs to up proc DCs in a new york minute if it gave a *chance* to be generally usefull as an alternative to 'just keep smashy with big stick till makey hurty thing fall down'

[Dim_Mak]

I wonder, if this "update" ever gets in a place..are we going to need to re-roll or rebuild or what???
and I really can't believe that it's all about the "lag"....
i really invested too much in some of my toons to be nerfed over night.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I wonder, if this "update" ever gets in a place..are we going to need to re-roll or rebuild or what???
and I really can't believe that it's all about the "lag"....
i really invested too much in some of my toons to be nerfed over night.

This is probably not going to necessitate re-rolling your toons. It will be an across the board change, everyone gets effected. TWF and THF damage numbers are simply being brought closer together. Let the 'leets cry it out...

[grodon9999]

The game is working just fine in Europe, basically no lag that matters.
So....you have it there, why mess it up here?

Does Europe have 1 million players?