Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Ollathir]

Having listened to the discussion regarding this system change on DDOCast Episode 169, I haveto agree with Samius that this new system is overly complicated.

If the number one problem that the Devs are trying to address is to reduce or eliminate DPS Lag, then I have to ask ask why replace a complex system calculation intensive system with another? I do understand the need to adjustthe power of TWF in comparison to S&B and THF, but hat should be handled seperately. Attack one problem at a time, with one variable to see if the change/variable contributes to the solution/proves your theory.

1. The change to using one Physics check makes sense.
2. Removing the physics check and replacing it with another check, no matter how light the resource requirement is makes no sense.
3. Samius proposed a defined combat round time period, and X number of attacks would happen within that time period. Speed boosts, which have been defined as a large part of the DPS problem would be simplified by adding Y number of attacks per round, or by decreasing the combat round duration for that character (this might pose difficulties later though). THe example he used was Haste, the PNP version of the spell grants 1 additional attack/round. Easy to do with his proposal. You now get X+1 attack/round. Attacking with Two Weapons would grant additional attacks per round with the off hand, or additional attacks every set duration (which could be determined based upon the TWF feats the character has).
4. All this information could be cached or "Permanently" written to the character and only updated when their TWF Feats are changed. At that point the information is in the cache is overwritten and this happens when the performance requirements for sever to slient communication is low and no lag. and things move along as normal.

Other things to consider:

1. Even though the resource requirements for a % based calculation are low, either the server or client has to calculate that % and transmit it to the other computer. Packet loss can still occur. Or whatever other concerns about an extra calcuation are still present to some degree. Just decrease the number of calclations needed period. KISS = Keep It simple Stupid. The more parts to a moving object, the more places things can go wrong. Less = More.
   
2. BAB order. In PNP your first attack was at your lowest BAB value. You got additional attacks every time your BAB hit a multiple of 5. Again this makes things simple a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin between the levels of 1-4 would get 1 attack per round with their main hand. At Level 5, they would get 2, one at +5 and one at +1.
   Additionally in order to make use of your additional attacks/per you had to stand still and make a full round attack action. But if you moved you would still get the benefit of your highest BAB value, while loosing out on your additional attacks.

In DDO if I am not mistaken you start out using your highest BAB value for your first attack, and each additional attack uses lower and lower BAB values as determined by your class and leve (and other modifiers, but the number of attacks is based upon you class/level BAB values). This benefits the Twitch approach to combat, where moving is a better option than standing still.

The proposed change to glancing blows with THF seems to try to combine the two approachs, where you only get additonal attack, or Glancing blwos by standing still, while still using your highest BAB value.

fixed

[FluffyCalico]

So why do so many of you insist that all classes should be able to take ALL the good feats? Leaving the fighters with 2-3 feat slots that are near worthless or used on extra toughness. There are supposed to be tons of good feats. Feats are completely screwed up until a human fighter can completely fill his feat list with good feats. We need more good feats. For those of you saying but x class can't fit y feat in their feat tree...good they aren't supposed to have all the good ones. Why would fighters be special because of all their feats if every class could take all the good ones?

[Meetch1972]

The more I read this thread, the more I think: what about weapon proc immunities? Sure, DPS is important a lot of the time, but when it comes to Red/Purple boss fights, it's ALL about DPS. Why?

Well the boss is immune to my wounding/weakening/etc weapons. A CR X boss is immune where a CR X trash mob in another area/quest isn't. Why?

Presumably because the boss fight would be over too soon without the immunity. So throw 10k hp at the boss, make them immune to all but holy/bane damage (and a couple of other effects like destruction and curse) and make DPS the way to draw out a fight. That seems to have been the logic so far. But does the immunity have to be a COMPLETE immunity?

Perhaps on a level playing field TWF SHOULD DO LESS DPS than THF in general- but this would be offset by the increased number of weapon effect procs that TWF could throw at the boss. My dual puncturing rapiers should most certainly occasionally drain a constitution point, but us potential boss-slayers aren't immune to this!

I'd suggest something like this to level the playing field a bit:
* letting bosses have restoration potions/spells/abilities with suitable concentration checks but remove the blanket immunity altogether, or
* making the PC roll an extra attack roll against the boss' AC, or if balance requires it, AC + 10, or require that confirmation to be a 20, or give them a resist roll, or whatever, to get the effect through once in a while - and just as with players the boss stats would regen over time during the fight.

With either of the above, boss' max HP could be lowered along with overall DPS totals. The high attack rate toons could live with their lowered attack rates and even damage since they would actually be capable of whittling down boss stats in a way at least similar to trash mobs.

Think of the elation if someone actually managed to vorpal the boss with the odds of confirming such a thing set to many thousands to one against! "Hmmm... do we do the charm/whittle thing with the Hound, or do we charge it and hope someone gets lucky - but probably wipe?" "Uh oh, the trash mobs have trashed the rest of the party. I'm the barb, the hound will spot me at any moment. Switch to vorpal and CHEEAARRRRRRRRGE!" If it works...

Yes it would need to be balanced/tuned, but it immediately removes the importance of pure DPS party members, while not making them useless at the same time. Worth thinking about?

[testing1234]

TWF has always been weak at low lvls now TWF feats are even more essential doubt anyone will even consider using TWF under BaB11 when they can take GTWF.
this is a significant nerf for a low BaB class like rogue (bard-cleric-fvs) they cant start using TWF until lvl15.

at low lvls TWF actually need a boost the TWF feats should, according to me, be made more powerful at the low end not equal.
not
twf 20% should be 30%
itwf 20% should be 30%
gtwf 20% should be 10%
even with these changes people specced for TWF would still likely do better dps low lvls using a 2h weapon, if u got +tohit for dualweapon powerattack would be much more effective anyhow

can change the % but i think the ratio of boost from TWF ITWF and GTWF should be like that. am aware the dex requirement needed for GTWF makes a expensive feat to take but for a dps build i could not see Not taking this feat even if it was low % boost.

EDIT:still dont like the whole new sytem but if it is coming id like developers to tweak it like this

[Borror0]

So why do so many of you insist that all classes should be able to take ALL the good feats?

No one claimed that.

The argument is that choices ought to be meaningful, and that it wouldn't happen under STWF because they are too obvious.

[Deified]

So this makes a twitching THF with Zeal/Fighter Capstone the fastest swinger in the game, eh?

[R0cksteady]

So this makes a twitching THF with Zeal/Fighter Capstone the fastest swinger in the game, eh?

Basically.

[Deified]

Basically.

I might not be the smartest fellow on DDO, but someone wielding a SoS shouldn't be swinging faster than a Tempest.

[Keridan]

So I was hoping that when our feedback was requested, it actually meant something. Now it definitely feels like a tactic to try and ease us into what was already decided. Posting this on the Friday before a long weekend left plenty of time to get over 120 pages of response. In those pages, there were many great ideas to use as alternatives and a resounding preference not to see the nerf as it was designed originally. What we got was some small concessions, most ideas and questions ignored, and the whole thing implemented on test without so much as another comment from the devs. There have been two full business days this week and we were told that Eldarin was catching up, but then nothing.

This is disappointing and disheartening. The devs may not agree with us or even be listening, but more response shouldn't be too much to ask. It seems to be the same "We were right and you just don't understand." approach that was applied to DA and the other nerfs mentioned repeatedly.

Edit: I have not actually gone to test server yet, but am basing that on a couple earlier posts that it's being tested. Can anyone confirm that? I'd feel silly if I posted incorrect information.

Turns out we do understand. Collectively, this group has more gaming experience than the dev team for any 10 games put together. We've seen hundreds of games fail and even a few succeed. I alone have been playing some form of MMO for well over 15 years. I also have a pretty decent resume as a software designer (tho my game writing experience is less than my professional software). I'm sure I'm not only not alone, but probably far from the most experienced and knowledgeable in this area.

I'm not saying you have to do what we suggest, but how about responding to the feedback you requested? It's your game, we just pay the salary and bills. I myself worry that the silence from the devs comes across as either not caring, or worse yet, confirmation of the "paranoid" theories put forth in this thread and others.

As stated before, this nerf doesn't even affect any of my primary toons. It's the approach and tactics that bother me far more than the change itself. There is a huge and terribly obvious bias towards making sure everyone grinds more and doesn't find a way around that grind. Yuck. Grind is expected in an MMO. It's part of life. But grind burn is something to be considered. It's something I worry about whenever starting another game after so many years.

When I came here to give it a shot and read up a little on the history of the game, I found primary changes to be DA (which you defend, but it could have been done better and smarter and I think you realize that). I also read about TR, which is one of the worst grind-to-reward ratios I've ever seen. I could name others and many folks have throughout this thread.

This game has some very innovative ideas and approaches to gaming. They seem to be fewer instead of more as time goes on, but they are still there and this is still a great game. How about improving on the original content and approaches instead of worrying about those who have figured out a way to speed up the grind a bit?

Sorry for the long-winded complaint, but I have followed this thread carefully since it was only 2 pages long and hoped so very much for it not to be what I expected. Unfortunately, I feel let down.

[Zaal]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.

[IronClan]

What we got was some small concessions, most ideas and questions ignored, and the whole thing implemented on test without so much as another comment from the devs. There have been two full business days this week and we were told that Eldarin was catching up, but then nothing.

bah here I was zipping though the last couple pages trying to catch up with my hyperscroll wheel in freespin mode, watching for a yellow name, and all I needed to do was read the last post

So it's already on the test server? I'm disapointed too... I read and kept up with this thread for roughly 2000 odd posts since is started but can't be arsed to read the last 20-30 odd pages due to the amount of repetition of falsehoods by people who apparently couldn't read the OP. Such as the idea that it's a nerf disguised as a lag fix, to trick us, or those who say upgrade the servers instead of nerfing TWF etc. when the nerf has been stated in the OP as PRIMARILY due to balance reasons. And only a little due to lag (to slightly lower the number of attacks, and to allow them to put in double strike to replace speed boosts such as Tempest I. Then there were the stupid thread derails from people with personal agendas...

It would be a wonder if (after reading all that) the Devs don't become somewhat disillusioned themselves...

[Souless]

Wow! I finally reached the end of this thread....and this will be my last post....Testing is occuring on lamania....

About the lag: Several ppl in this thread have posed what seem like resonable ideas (other than TWF) both for why lag (flying swords in P4, Shadow fiends in p2) is created and how to eliminate it (allow us to select the off switch on the who page, remove the combat log from the direct communication link, 1 physical check for stationary mobs) Now after 160+ pages I'm sorry that I don't remember ur names or quote you directly...that in no way diminishes these suggestions as apparently viable...Eladrin???

About the nerf: I am sorry for all of u gamers who have neither the time, toons, or inclination to grind for gear (in either TWF or THF ESOS) but because u don't should not give u the right to cry: Balance.....to use an analagy..I think what is happening here is very similar to the Sword of Truth novles written by Terry Goodkind.

Basically, what occurs is the masses, in this case THF pulling down the indivduals TWF By stating that they should not shine nor be better TWF simply becase we can't THF.

And I find myself thinking of the main character's response to this form of hypocrasy....*Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it.* I am thinking of the death of my twf builds....I am thinking you can only kill me once...I'm thinking.....

The Bytcher~

[Keridan]

Tried to edit my last post, but it's not showing up on my screen with the new section. I based my comment that it's in testing on a couple of earlier posts. Can anyone confirm that? I would feel silly if I'm posting incorrect information.

[eonfreon]

Knowing that lag is less important than avoiding a nerf is useful feedback as, if the change to procs alters the feel of the game in a negative way, it might help them to pick the alternative the playerbase prefer. Remember the combat change of patch 1. Numbers are not everything; feel matters too. No one was nerfed in the first version of the change, but people didn't like it because it didn't play as well as it did before so they changed it again to keep the feel we like. It required to nerf Haste.

I really don't know why I'm wasting my time. I really think at this point you've shown that your "above average reading skills" are actually above average rationalization skills.

Once again I'll ask you the question you've evaded just for the heck of it; how can you think that anyone has any problem with the fact that the offhand collision check is now piggybacked to the main hand? Since that is not a nerf to DPS, how can it be construed as a preference of lag over DPS?
Remember the removal of the offhand collision check and the addition of the offhand proc chance are not the same thing.

So your "logical interpretation" is anything but, because you're still arguing that the Devs are not trying to imply that the TWF nerf is also required to "fix DPS lag" overall. And yet that is what is implied. The "players prefer their DPS over a smoother play experience" is pretty clear. My reading skills are quite above average too. And I can spot contradictions without trying to rationalize them.

Whether it be the "intuitive" interpretation or the "logical" interpretation, it's all an interpretation until the Devs spell it out. And then you may be either right or you may be wrong. And if you're wrong, then really I guess you've proven that Eladrin truly didn't realize how "stupid some people can be".

The fact of the matter is:
We all know that the initial change of the collision check should have some effect on DPS lag or "attack lag" or whatever. And that this change has no effect in and of itself to lower DPS.

We also can infer that less hits and the damage rolls (aka DPS by the offhand) may also decrease DPS.
And we all know that the Devs want to nerf TWF DPS, because it's too "far superior" to other styles (which means vs. THF because that's the only other viable style).

Now, I really have little problem with the latest numbers presented. Others may think it's not enough because they want "balance", but I think it's okay, if I have to swallow that pill, and that's as far as I'll go.

If you really think that TWF is "overpowered" in EPIC then you are living in a different world then me. AND that's the freaking Endgame they've shoved down our throats.

Oh yes, I know, they'll lower MOB hit points and AC and to-hits. Great, then I want to see it go hand in hand with the changes. I would've had more faith if Grazing Hits had ever realized lower MOB to-hits rather then simply been a way to chip away at High AC characters, because MOB to-hits went way up in Epic, not down. So why should I believe that MOB HP will go down until it actually does?

I'll see what happens in LLama. And of course I'll deal with whatever comes. Even if that includes deleting or relegating characters to "bank status".

Anyway, I'm going to go play the game. I'll check back later to see if you've answered my main question or evaded it once again. Here, in case your reading skills need a hand, is the question again:
How can you think that anyone has any problem with the fact that the offhand collision check is now piggybacked to the main hand? Since that is not a nerf to DPS, how can it be construed as a preference of lag over DPS?
Remember the removal of the offhand collision check and the addition of the offhand proc chance are not the same thing.

[Baahb3]

just slow down the overall combat system and don't nerf anything.

if a hypothetical battle normally takes a minute, add 10% and have said battle take a minute, 6 seconds.

then maybe scale xp by say 5% to compensate for extra battle time.

They tried that once and the result was an agonizingly slow combat, much more so for lower level characters. I don't think they will slow down the attack animations again.

[Borror0]

I really think at this point you've shown that your "above average reading skills" are actually above average rationalization skills.

I'm not sure why you expect me to reply to a post that is written on that tone.

[eonfreon]

I'm not sure why you expect me to reply to a post that is written on that tone.

LOL. But you did respond, you threw your ability to neg rep at it.
I really figured you might answer. But someone who talks about how stupid others are, how poor other people's reading skills are, and how above average your reading skills are, I would have at least hoped you weren't petty enough to neg rep. But hey, what the heck, it'll soon be negated by the pos rep I got.
Yes, my "tone" was "derogatory" because you don't answer the question. You could ignore it, but instead you create rationalizations.

I understand your desire to do "damage control" for Turbine, I really do. After all, they are doing what you feel is fair. But the fact of the matter is Turbine never answered the question if "collision checks are piggybacked and reduce those calculations, are additional DPS reductions needed as well, or are they separate".
Why would the changes need to be reverted (the piggyback check on the main hand) if the offhand chance to proc is removed. Or is that what Turbine meant? That they'll keep the collision check but revert the offhand proc, which will have no effect on DPS and then they'll have to look at other ways to reduce DPS. So are they saying that DPS = lag, and that we'll have to do less DPS? Does that mean that MOBS will have to have less HP or is the design that we'll have to take that much longer to kill MOBS?

Hah, Neg rep for being as snarky to you as you are to the rest of us. Quite sweet. I'll try to make my tone more acceptable to you .

[RJBsComputer]

All the numbers you are throwing up are great, but are a little out of context when not being able to see the decision tree that they are set in. One way I think that could help is to pig back more of the RNDs for the main hand to the off hand with fixed percentages across the board on everything. For example:

X= Main Hand To-Hit
X+Y= Main Hand and Off Hand To-Hit
Z= To-Hit RND

If X+Y>=Z then Compute Main Hand + Off Hand dps
Else If X>= Z then Compute Main Hand dps

But if you do this, you well have to make changes in the number of feats and enchancements that classes can choose to keep things at a more or less at the same level they are at now. The fix numbers for combat can be computed and save at leveling and when enchancements are added. Then you just have to compute the to-hit roll and then just use a decision tree to find how many hits happen to compute dps. However; how big is computing dps. Does this slow run time too? That is another question that needs to be looked at and streamed line also.

You seem to be forgetting that Rogues are also a major TWF build and alot of them splashing some ranger and monk into them also. I really think that an overall overhaul to streamline the RNDs and decision trees in the combat area is needed more than trying to put a band-aid on it by changing a few classes as oppose to all the classes.

I can put up with lag if there is a solid and well thought out attack at removing unneed code. If this is done in a way that does not damage the flavor and feel of the game.

[~Tago_Bane]

so basically a lv 20 rogue post update 5 with the three TWF feats will attack at a slower rate, then a lv20 rogue without any of the TWF feats pre update 5 (100%/80%vs 100%/100%) and to top it all off, all the boasts you can get with other features in the game (haste, tempest, figher cap) only indirectly increase the rate of attacks based off of a proc percentage increase that doesn't improve while weilding two wpns.

Don't you think such a drastic change in the base mechanics of the game is gonna cut your customer base in half? I mean seriously, the people actually looking forward to this change have some backwards assumption that TWF is overpowered (clearly never healed a TOD) that is obviously based off of the fact that THF is underpowred (let's not forget that THF requires no feats or dex score to obtain). And the people speaking out against it have spent time and money in building and equiping their toons. How long do you think they are gonna put up with this change that overrides their current investments?

[Tom_Hunters]

ouch i just find that my 2HF pally will lose glancing blows while running and under Zeal...

how sad