Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Tomalon]

So Lama is up and has the change to TWF.

I went over there and did some ruff testing.

On live my tempest Tommygunz does 10 attacks in one full chain of swings animation.

On Lama, with the change in place, he now only does 8 in the same swing animation.
so ruff testing shows a 20% drop in DPS output due to 2 less attacks.

now keep in mind that i could not tell from the combat log if any of the 8 attacks were double strikes. It either doesnt say or i didnt get any in my test.

Also this was a very small ruff test i did. But i have to say if a 20% drop in TWF dps is intended.....im not very happy.

El its time you sat down and figured out a way to fix the lag with out nerfing the game. Every attempt you have made in the last 2yrs to try and fix the lag in game has been to slow it down. dungeon alert, slow the ppl down as the go thru a quest= failure to fix any lag. I guessing this change will have little effect on the lag also. Not sure if you lack the ability to test the lag (properly) on your end or the coding skill required or maybe you are doing the best with the tools given to you. but **** man nerfs are not always the answer. and i hear you guys had another method to try on ML but you choose to go this route instead of even giving the other any proper testing at all? *** Anyways i got off my topic abit ranting.

[Invalid_50]

So Lama is up and has the change to TWF.

I went over there and did some ruff testing.

On live my tempest Tommygunz does 10 attacks in one full chain of swings animation.

On Lama, with the change in place, he now only does 8 in the same swing animation.
so ruff testing shows a 20% drop in DPS output due to 2 less attacks.

now keep in mind that i could not tell from the combat log if any of the 8 attacks were double strikes. It either doesnt say or i didnt get any in my test.

Also this was a very small ruff test i did. But i have to say if a 20% drop in TWF dps is intended.....im not very happy.

El its time you sat down and figured out a way to fix the lag with out nerfing the game. Every attempt you have made in the last 2yrs to try and fix the lag in game has been to slow it down. dungeon alert, slow the ppl down as the go thru a quest= failure to fix any lag. I guessing this change will have little effect on the lag also. Not sure if you lack the ability to test the lag (properly) on your end or the coding skill required or maybe you are doing the best with the tools given to you. but **** man nerfs are not always the answer. and i hear you guys had another method to try on ML but you choose to go this route instead of even giving the other any proper testing at all? *** Anyways i got off my topic abit ranting.

I hear you man.

It's like fixing the traffic problem on the freeways by changing the speedlimit to 5 mph. it may fix the traffic problem, but it also defeats the whole purpose of taking the freeway in the first place.

[Grendyll]

The nerf train just keeps on rolling.

Epic SoS changed from x4 to x3 (but base damage increased from 4d6 to 5d6).

Weighted 5% weapons changed to 3% proc chance and DC 33 fort save to resist the stun.

I guess if the only remaining advantage of 2WF is the rapid application of "on-hit" effects, they can just nerf all those effects!

[Baahb3]

I think that is the point. FE does not cover everything you fight at end game anymore due to epics adding more variety to the mobs you face.

Von1 = Giants
Von2 = not worth mentioning
Von3 = Red named Troll, Boss-Construct/Outsider, drow may be useful here
Von4 = Constructs
Von5 = no one I know runs this on epic
Von6 = Djinns-Ousiders, Velah = Ok you have me there

Wiz King = Undead
Chains = Gnolls, 1 quest of which is not run very much at all
OOB = Drow would be useful here but is anyone really having a problem with this.
ADQ1 = Again, don't know too many that run this fully on epic, mainly just scroll farming but the boss is an outsider
ADQ2 = Oustsider

As for the sentinal pack, I have not heard of too many running this but here yes you are correct, Humans and Orcs aplenty.

Again I state, the most common FEs are seen in nearly all epics right now. And when they release Gianthold as epic, giants show up again.

[krud]

You can take those numbers a whole lot higher if you properly gear those builds for DPS.

Well then it looks like it's about time someone starts a thread where we can all agree on what "properly geared for dps" means. A thread like gfunk's for all melee styles affected by this so we can make comparisons among top melee dps on a level playing field.

Everyone has their own idea, using every obscure buff available to one-up everyone else's numbers, forgetting that everyone else also has access to the exact same stuff.

[Chuutritt]

And I agree Bandy, there's no doubt that people at this point seem to DPS centric, it seems that more peopel find it more fun to hit stuff harder than the next guy as oppossed to using the varying other skills of the classes. Part of that is because many of those skills simply aren't time effective or all that important in most quests. It's certainly a design problem, because as soon as you start making various abilities TOO important, at least from anal-uber-gamer perspective, you start limiting the party make-up for those quests.

Putting together various clues, such as the conversation not long ago about possible changes to fortification, and I think Eladrin's commernts or possibly from another Dev, about tying in some other skils into mob fortification damaging effects by PC's, might hint at the direction they're heading overall. And that's an attempt to start making it more beneficial for players to use and pay attention to some fo the varying skill/abilities fo the variuos classes as oppossed to what it is now..... I can do 143.2345 damage yahoo.... I'm the awesome uber gamer. At this point in most cases that's the most important thing, and to many people the ONLY important thing. Due to the current overall game design, I don't neccesarily blame them.

But looking at what's been said, and putting it altogether.. There's likely mroe things tied into all of this.....

Agreed, the game will be much more interesting when intelligent gameplay is brought more to the fore and the zerging DPS style is retired to the rear. Until then we will jus have the powergaming zergers racing each other to do more DPS and bore themselves and others into the next game to come along so they can take out the tape measure and compare with each other how uber they are.

[bobbryan2]

Agreed, the game will be much more interesting when intelligent gameplay is brought more to the fore and the zerging DPS style is retired to the rear. Until then we will jus have the powergaming zergers racing each other to do more DPS and bore themselves and others into the next game to come along so they can take out the tape measure and compare with each other how uber they are.

Um... currently zerging IS intelligent gameplay. Maybe you're wanting a different game.

[Chuutritt]

Um... currently zerging IS intelligent gameplay. Maybe you're wanting a different game.

I certain situations yes, in others its like Run Forest Run!

[Consumer]

The way I have the DPS leaderboard atm is:

Epic SoS Fighter - 574.44
Tempest Rogue - 542.29
12/6/2 Egomaniac - 532.29
12/6/2 Monster - 526.24
Epic SoS Barb - 500.19
Khopesh Fighter - 487.42
WF 18/2 Ranger/Fighter - 486.6
WF Fighter GA - 466.22
WF THF Barb GA - 441.2
WF TWF Barb - 436.76

Massive massive drop from previous numbers.

[Pyromaniac]

Sigh, more nerfs...this should help grow the veteran player base. Well I've invested quite a bit of cash lately on gaming and none of its going to go to DDO.

Good luck with the nerfs, I'm done with this thread.

[Gornin]

I think that AD and Borro0 are on to something about the loss of options. (Don't tell them I said so please. )

STWF or not, this proposed change reduces options.

Real quick, please raise your hand if you have a dex build you still play? Bueller?...

/tentatively raises hand - My rogue/ranger

[redoubt]

Not only are the numbers old but the gear used is also old and will not contain items such as the redscale docent and +7 str items.

holy **** batman! my drow dex build ranger is required to have an epic docent now!

Everyone keeps talking about how this nerfs perfect builds and epic players... what about the rest of us?

[redoubt]

Well some do. For example any static increase in str. benefits any split that uses THF over TWF unless the TWF split has a 100% off hand hook chance. Also double strike benefits THF and the same applies to str scaling also. On the flip side red dragon armor adds a on hit boost for both weapons so it benefits TWF more.

not on a finesse build...

[Steiner-Davion]

Having listened to the discussion regarding this system change on DDOCast Episode 169, I haveto agree with Samius that this new system is overly complicated.

If the number one problem that the Devs are trying to address is to reduce or eliminate DPS Lag, then I have to ask ask why replace a complex system calculation intensive system with another? I do understand the need to adjustthe power of TWF in comparison to S&B and THF, but hat should be handled seperately. Attack one problem at a time, with one variable to see if the change/variable contributes to the solution/proves your theory.

[LIST=1][*] The change to using one Physics check makes sense.[*] Removing the physics check and replacing it with another check, no matter how light the resource requirement is makes no sense.[*] Samius proposed a defined combat round time period, and X number of attacks would happen within that time period. Speed boosts, which have been defined as a large part of the DPS problem would be simplified by adding Y number of attacks per round, or by decreasing the combat round duration for that character (this might pose difficulties later though). THe example he used was Haste, the PNP version of the spell grants 1 additional attack/round. Easy to do with his proposal. You now get X+1 attack/round. Attacking with Two Weapons would grant additional attacks per round with the off hand, or additional attacks every set duration (which could be determined based upon the TWF feats the character has).[*] All this information could be cached or "Permanently" written to the character and only updated when their TWF Feats are changed. At that point the information is in the cache is overwritten and this happens when the performance requirements for sever to slient communication is low and no lag. and things move along as normal.


Other things to consider:
[LIST=1][*] Even though the resource requirements for a % based calculation are low, either the server or client has to calculate that % and transmit it to the other computer. Packet loss can still occur. Or whatever other concerns about an extra calcuation are still present to some degree. Just decrease the number of calclations needed period. KISS = Keep It simple Stupid. The more parts to a moving object, the more places things can go wrong. Less = More.
[*] BAB order. In PNP your first attack was at your lowest BAB value. You got additional attacks every time your BAB hit a multiple of 5. Again this makes things simple a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin between the levels of 1-4 would get 1 attack per round with their main hand. At Level 5, they would get 2, one at +5 and one at +1.
Additionally in order to make use of your additional attacks/per you had to stand still and make a full round attack action. But if you moved you would still get the benefit of your highest BAB value, while loosing out on your additional attacks.

In DDO if I am not mistaken you start out using your highest BAB value for your first attack, and each additional attack uses lower and lower BAB values as determined by your class and leve (and other modifiers, but the number of attacks is based upon you class/level BAB values). This benefits the Twitch approach to combat, where moving is a better option than standing still.

The proposed change to glancing blows with THF seems to try to combine the two approachs, where you only get additonal attack, or Glancing blwos by standing still, while still using your highest BAB value.

[Gornin]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.

[Steiner-Davion]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

QFT.

Your second and third paragraphs are dead on!

[Borror0]

Ah, because the more logical interpertation of the post is not.

My interpretation of the post is the logical one; yours is the more intuitive one. The paragraph first reads as if Eladrin is saying that DPS and lag are tied, that it's not only about detection checks. However, that would directly conflict with what he has claimed previously. Logic obliges to find an interpretation where there is no contradiction.

What part of nerfing GS weapons would change the number of physics checks? It would only change the dps calculations

I don't know if Green Steel's design cause a greater load or not. Do you?

How can you possibly think that anyone had a problem with reducing physical collision detections by piggybacking on the main-hand.

Knowing that lag is less important than avoiding a nerf is useful feedback as, if the change to procs alters the feel of the game in a negative way, it might help them to pick the alternative the playerbase prefer. Remember the combat change of patch 1. Numbers are not everything; feel matters too. No one was nerfed in the first version of the change, but people didn't like it because it didn't play as well as it did before so they changed it again to keep the feel we like. It required to nerf Haste.

[smatt]

I finally think I put my finger on what bothers me about this nerf, both from the piggy backing and DPS/speed nerf.

The function of choosing feats, allocating stats and obtaining gear is to lessen our chances of failure against a RNG, whether it be a Die or algorithm.

This % to proc "double strikes" and off hand attacks obviates all that. You choose a feat and you get a % chance to strike with off hand. That is what the die roll with modifiers is supposed to indicate, now it is a random chance that you even get a chance to attack with your off hand. That is wrong and against the purpose of character building. You might as well just change everything to %s and we would be just like WoW or EQ2 or a host of other games out there.

You will lose the FPS feel of this game, you are getting further away from DnD than you need to. Mobile Combat, as Aesop termed it, is an integral part of the experience in this game, please don't screw that up. Please stop trying to make this game like all the rest.

Please do find other ways to combat the problem, instead of an idea that limits choices and builds, cause that is what this change will do. Everyone will make the same builds because there will not be any other real choices that will be allowed to be due to the usual MMO snobbery that occurs.

Look at my builds. Several are not standard, nor optimized, but they still perform well enough at endgame that they are acceptable in raids and epics. This will hurt most of my builds to the point I will have to finally suck it up and TR, or at minimum, LR them to one of 2 acceptable builds, and that sucks. A lot.

Some good feedback here... For me personally, I can always work around anyking of nerf or change... So what... Adjust, firgure it out, keeps the game intersting in my eyes. But the "FEEL" of playing the game is very important to me..... As someone else said, the orginal combat changes in Update 1 drove me nuts. Swinging in molases was not fun... They found a better way. Without testing it's hard to say what this will do to each and every build out there. wWithin the big piture.... No matter what they change if it plays poorly.. It's a fail... And that's what will be important to MOST players, you know the vast majority who don't come to the forums...... Everything else is a big MEH...

[Shiler]

Question
Do you still get double attacks with TWF while moving forward/backward?
Or its % chance in there too?

[Ollathir]

Extreme dominance is realistically not the case. You simply dont look to load your party with TWF's for end game content. Currently if your goal is for maximum DPS, you grind the hell out Vons and get an ESoS, if your already a THF an your not lucky enough or able to run it enough, GS GA, GS GS, GS GC work pretty well for you, situationally better that an ESoS. Not once has it been mentioned by anyone of merit that any change to ESoS will be forthcoming, until such time, get over it, its here to stay and should be included in the discussion of balancing.

wow. So if I want to win a lottery or pull some nice loot I need to post the opposite here more often.