Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[smatt]

The problem isn't now, nor has it ever been, that many people disagree with that.

The problem is that the freaking game is designed so that DPS>than any of those other options.

It's not a failure on the part of the people, it's a failure on the part of the developers.

And I agree Bandy, there's no doubt that people at this point seem to DPS centric, it seems that more peopel find it more fun to hit stuff harder than the next guy as oppossed to using the varying other skills of the classes. Part of that is because many of those skills simply aren't time effective or all that important in most quests. It's certainly a design problem, because as soon as you start making various abilities TOO important, at least from anal-uber-gamer perspective, you start limiting the party make-up for those quests.

Putting together various clues, such as the conversation not long ago about possible changes to fortification, and I think Eladrin's commernts or possibly from another Dev, about tying in some other skils into mob fortification damaging effects by PC's, might hint at the direction they're heading overall. And that's an attempt to start making it more beneficial for players to use and pay attention to some fo the varying skill/abilities fo the variuos classes as oppossed to what it is now..... I can do 143.2345 damage yahoo.... I'm the awesome uber gamer. At this point in most cases that's the most important thing, and to many people the ONLY important thing. Due to the current overall game design, I don't neccesarily blame them.

But looking at what's been said, and putting it altogether.. There's likely mroe things tied into all of this.....

[Souless]

By your reasoning, any arcane that takes a Bard splash to get zero ASF in armor has a valid reason to complain when that gets fixed as well.
They built their toon upon the current rules.

Yes, one is an tantamount to an exploit and one is a simple imbalance, but the fact remains.

I'll repeat once again that most of my melee are TWFers, and I'll feel this just like the rest of you, but I'm not thinking with my own personal bottom line in mind. I'm thinking with the game's bottom line in mind.

Ok so u feel that a THF spending 0 feats should be balanced with a TWF that has spent 3 feats (arguably 4 including khopesh) to become a master TWF.

How is that balanced?

I have given up ingredients (and grind time) to craft weapons, Hp (for added dex which wouldve gone to con), and finally DR (u can laugh here, but the point is vallid) I chose Human as my race for the xtra feat to gain khop. I coulda been a WF clone and recieved dr through enhancements.

Finally, and I have said this over and over in this thread....WHERE IS THE DRASTIC DOMINANCE?????.....CAUSE I DON"T SEE IT!!!!

Prove it...or at least please stop preaching balance...when after 3 feats, tons of time, and leveling the build why should there be balance???

Finally, 1 more screwing that is occuring here that at least to this point in my reading (about pg 90) is when all the TWF's respec. (because that is what will happen) why waste feats on a marginal fighting style...WE WILL NEED TO CRAFT YET ANOTHER DOUBLE-SHARDED 2HANDED WEAPON. And that is the final F-ing to the TWF!!!

The Bytcher~

Souless/Xbow/Valice/Spectyr/Tazzor/Vampir/Xindao/Richgirl

[Steiner-Davion]

Question: Is there any difference between the physic check and the attack role? If Not then why not just enable the off hand attack to use the same physic check and a different attack role? If you can do that, than nothing else needs to change.

We are using the same physics detect as your main hand attack, and then doing the attack rolls for additional hits.

So why not just test out this change by itself and see how it affects performance before making such a radical change to the combat system?

[bobbryan2]

But looking at what's been said, and putting it altogether.. There's likely mroe things tied into all of this.....

And hoping for future design changes... nay... complete upheavals of current design is a path, down which, lies madness.

We can all sit around a campfire and hope for a day when bluff will be a useful skill... but until there's something concrete... we shouldn't judge whether certain changes are bad or good based on pie in the sky hopes.

[arminius]

I don't understand why some expect TWF and THF to be roughly equivalent DPS. TWF requires significantly more investment.

1. THF works fine with no THF feats at all, at least far better than TWF does with no TWF feats at all. THF feats don't increase the chance to hit or damage on hit, they only help glancing blows and glancing blow procs.

2. While OTWF is not required to be an effective TWF-er, it is easier to get higher DPS than THF that way, so the fact is that for the best DPS, OTWF is at least semi-required.

3. Even if you say, OK, 2 characters with only the 3 main feats for TWF and THF, respectively, TWF still requires a very significant investment into Dexterity. Rogues and Rangers (and maybe Monks, I don't know Monks well), even Str based, still want Dex in the range that would allow GTWF anyway, so no big sacrifice there. But Fighters and especially Paladins, Barbarians, and Favored Souls take a huge hit by having to invest (typically) 8 points into Dex to get to 15, when they otherwise would have invested as few as 0 points. For example:

My TWF Human Paladin, no GS HP item: 504 HP.
My THF Human Paladin, no GS HP item: 570 HP.

Otherwise they are essentially identical. And please don't say 66 HP is no big deal, because it is, for any class. Paladin 1 should get something back for that loss of 66 HP. Why shouldn't it be better single-target DPS?

[smatt]

And hoping for future design changes... nay... complete upheavals of current design is a path, down which, lies madness.

We can all sit around a campfire and hope for a day when bluff will be a useful skill... but until there's something concrete... we shouldn't judge whether certain changes are bad or good based on pie in the sky hopes.

Indeed..... I was just trying to make a bit more sense out of the big picture and the varius clues. There's more to this than justd ealing with lag issues, or nerfing TWF.... I think there's some thought goign to into soem of the fundementals pof the game, now that it's very possible that the budget is a bit higher than it was before, and it's likely that there's some more in that budget to do things they couldn't have done in the past.

[Sarezar]

I don't know if this will sort out part of the lag but I what I do know is that it will fix the whole swinging around my weapons not making contact thing while THF just runs around swinging everywhere in a way that you'd think his weapon is 3 times as long.

To clarify, I have found the past months that TWF has immense physical contact lag even in small parties and the way my character behaves when chasing mobs is very different than it used to be the previous 3-3.5 years. When everyone is standing still attacking the same monster, things are a bit better, but when you are chasing something, TWF has an enormous edge in "catching" the monster first if my TWF is timed at his off hand attack. I'm not talking about just running with the right button pressed, I'm talking about combat movement, where you run, stop, strafe, move a step, strafe, jump, turn, etc. In these cases, my offhand attacks connect almost half a second later than they used to, and it's hard to get used to it after playing for all these years.

[bandyman1]

I heal 800hp barbarians.. i resurrect 150hp rogues lol.

ROTFLMAO. I completely missed that post.


FYI to Krag;

If your rogue isn't around 375-400ish HP ( or more ) at cap, you've done something very, very wrong.

And I sure most clerics would appreciate you staying out of their parties all together.

[Drfirewater79]

i am kinda 24 hours behind in this thread (so about 15 pages)

i noticed nothing has been said by a dev in a while ...

while i would understand why they would have abandoned this thread now that update 5 will be on lama later this week ...

but in the off chance that it hasn't been tossed aside with yesterdays trash

1) no confirmation on if mobs hps will be decreased to make up for lack of dps in raids.

2) no confirmation that the last numbers are the official last numbers .. .with the removal of STWF it hasnt been mentioned if GTWF will be 100/100 to make up for the lack of STWF.

3) no confirmation that it is being added to update 5 ..... update 5 release notes come out tomorrow so i guess this one i can find out then .... but it seems like there is still alot of work and though that needs to go into this so possible it is being pushed back to update 6 so i can have at least two months of enjoyment of the new monk pre before the change and inevitable hate ????

[Natashaelle]

i noticed nothing has been said by a dev in a while ...

while i would understand why they would have abandoned this thread now that update 5 will be on lama later this week ...

It's Live on Lama NOW !!!

[SquelchHU]

So, you were responding to him, but you quoted me???


Since the rogue in question wan't using ranged, but TWFing in fact, mind telling us how he pulled Suulo's agro off Shade, not once, but 3-4 times, considering " that doesn't happen " according to your posts, and the posts of several others in this thread???

I'm not going to go following that quote chain all the way back to figure it out. But he was talking about a ranged attacker pulling aggro, and then you responded to that and called me out about it. So yes I quoted you, who quoted a ranged post to point out that ranged has buggy aggro mechanics. And this is why we need quote trees to make ongoing discussions easier to follow.

[Drfirewater79]

ROTFLMAO. I completely missed that post.


FYI to Krag;

If your rogue isn't around 375-400ish HP ( or more ) at cap, you've done something very, very wrong.

And I sure most clerics would appreciate you staying out of their parties all together.

I have to agree ... its not hard to get 400 hps .... in windstance on my monk (-2 con)
I have 402 hps ... with a base of 14 (dex wisdom to max then reduced 2 dex and 2 wisdom to increase str and con cause i decided 2 ac wasnt worth the lack of hps) and even before that build design when i was pure dex and wisdom base 8 con i still had 330 hps

really there is something wrong if at lvl 20 you dont have more then 300 hps unless you a caster or even worse an acrane trickster with no shroud items (my AT build has only 240 hps i think i would have to double check to know for sure)

[Arlathen]

It's Live on Lama NOW !!!

Hmm, shame. This is the first time I'm missing being a VIP for Lama access.

Well, I've delivered my input, still awaiting to see what the current template of changes is going to be. I've seen the updated table with no STWF (of which I'm very happy, btw).

I wonder if we'll get another round to offer some constructive feedback once Eladrin nearly finishes the proposed changes.

[Drfirewater79]

acrane trickster with no shroud items (my AT build has only 240 hps i think i would have to double check to know for sure)

double checked my ddo and i have 306 (and the ability to use full heal scrolls) on my trickster build

[Drfirewater79]

It's Live on Lama NOW !!!

sweet cant wait to get home .... need to get my character uploaded .... oh oh oh time to test the monk and caster again ....

if combat sucks at least i can enjoy my pale master right?

[Drfirewater79]

So why not just test out this change by itself and see how it affects performance before making such a radical change to the combat system?

cause that is how turbine gets down ...

Turbine's rick james @#$#@

[SquelchHU]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...t=relative+twf
This may not have been updated recently, but take a look at the top dps in the list and see how many of the 400+ builds are tempest rangers (6 splash or18). Now, how many of those also include rogue as a major contribution? All those builds will get hit along with the ranger, so they'll all drop in effectiveness. Tempest3 ranger dps may fall by 15%, but all others will drop by ~10% or more as well, leaving the relative positions unchanged. And after all that it will still be above THF.

And the top of the list is 600+. As I said. And it hasn't been updated recently, nor does it contain non TWF based characters.

But more to the point...

466.8 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1, w/ khopeshes , vs. favored , with sneak attack , haste boost +15% (exploiter) < Position is dependent on short term effects. Namely, 2:30 of haste boost.
418.2 … human , ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , with sneak attack , (exploiter) < What you get without haste boosts.
431.8 … warforged , ranger 20 , tempest III , w/ khopeshes , vs. favored ,

Any of those numbers sound impressive to you? They're alright, but impressive? (by comparison, Monks are 433)

[Baahb3]

You've run with me, I'm not maxed out but I've got a good build and I'm a competent player. I can tell you right now my Tempest III does NOT do as much damage as TWF kensais and barb regardless of style. I'm basing this on the only valid test, combat and who gets the aggro. Rangers are NOT top DPS and don't need this nerf. We do not hit as hard as fighters or barbs, we need out swing-speed to stay close.

IMO rangers don't need to be close to fighters and barbarians DPS wise. Rangers should have to trade DPS for versatility.

Skills, evasion, self healing, spells are a few things that rangers trade for DPS. To ask for or expect to get all of this AND still be near the top of the DPS charts is just being greedy.

[Strype.McClaine]

I'm intrigued by the changes, and will reserve judgement until testing with my own two hands, however.

Talking about the invisible elephant in the room, thief-acrobat quarterstaff rogues.
Acrobat I gives a 10% speed boost....
Acrobat II gives 20% speed boost.....

Currently in the live environment I see NOTHING in terms of a difference acrobat 1 and 2 (from the speed side)
Is this going to stay the same?
Is Acrobat II working as intended?

Sure, I'm not talking about the best of the best elite builds, but this is a fun viable build that kinda skulks in the shadows with a big stick.

Just wondering.

[grodon9999]

IMO rangers don't need to be close to fighters and barbarians DPS wise. Rangers should have to trade DPS for versatility.

Skills, evasion, self healing, spells are a few things that rangers trade for DPS. To ask for or expect to get all of this AND still be near the top of the DPS charts is just being greedy.

We're NOT close now unless that barb/fighter is a GIMP.