Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Razcar]

So if offhand attacks are going to be chances, do you still attack with both weapons? Will your animation and the weapons you are using correspond? And if this will just change the additional "hooks" that are there, why is that a bad thing, since if you have a 4 attack strand, and GTWF gives you three additional "hooks", it would then only grant 75% extra attacks which is less than the devs are granting with the changes.

No, GTWF gave four hooks, not three. So total eight attacks in a full sequence. Just picking up two weapons gave you six attacks (but with massive minuses to hit of you didn't have TWF), ITWF gave you seven attacks in the sequence (four main-hand, three of the half-strength hooks).

Now it will instead be a percentage chance on your main hand attacks that the off-hand attack will go off "with-it", or not. For GTWF that chance is 80%, Then there are asorted bells and whistles to sort of push that up a little for the Ones Chosen By the Devs.

[Inkblack]

No, GTWF gave four hooks, not three. So total eight attacks in a full sequence. Just picking up two weapons gave you six attacks (but with massive minuses to hit of you didn't have TWF), ITWF gave you seven attacks in the sequence (four main-hand, three of the half-strength hooks).

Now it will instead be a percentage chance on your main hand attacks that the off-hand attack will go off "with-it", or not. For GTWF that chance is 80%, Then there are asorted bells and whistles to sort of push that up a little for the Ones Chosen By the Devs.

Thanks. Is getting 2 off-hand attacks just for picking up the weapon documented anywhere? Is there a certain BAB where the 2nd attack kicks in?

[Aaxeyu]

Well, i would like a third opinion about this . I find odd that no fighter thf submitted entrances to the shade contest, i assumed it was because they couldnt beat the barbarians, but there could be other reasons for sure...

Consumer is correct.
No one cares about Shades contest because it's silly.

[MrkGrismer]

Thanks. Is getting 2 off-hand attacks just for picking up the weapon documented anywhere? Is there a certain BAB where the 2nd attack kicks in?

It kind of is here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Two-Weapon_Fighting

[Gercho]

Consumer is correct.
No one cares about Shades contest because it's silly.

Well, i may be missing something because i dont really know about top dps thf, but how i see things:

Barbs have +18 str from rage + frenzy +dead frenzy, +2 str from capstone, extra damage from greater vicious, extra 6 damage from power attack enhancements, better critical profile.

Fighters have +6 str from power surge +3 str from enhancements, +4 damage from weapon specialization, and haste boost, i dont think haste boost that is burst dps can compensate all the other stuff, though as i said, i may be missing many things...

[MarcusCleardawn]

Generally sounds good.

Sounds like a pretty small change overall - currently full twitch THF hasted 20 BAB toons get 140 attacks in a minute, whereas TWF get 220. Post changes, I assume the TWF gets 140 * (100% + 55%) = 231 (if I read it all correctly).

I'm for this change being seriously tested.

I beg to differ.
1) Twitch THF fighting is a bug. It is not WAI, even if it hasn't been fixed for a significant period of time.

2) TWF requires more build points, more feats, and/or character level splashes than THF; it also takes a significant penalty to base damage, bonus damage (STR) and to hit) [though it can get additional proc effects] so it should be compensated for that expense. If not, then TWF will be relegated to role players and novelty/concept builds.

3) The nerf significantly impacts the public perception of the viability and worthiness of builds that are only relatively recently gaining acceptance in PUG raids, ranger and monks particularly.


The DPS lag seems like it could be largely corrected by removing the 2nd physic check. The imposition of the % of double strike seems to add a calculation, thus increasing DPS lag.

I admit I don't know the burdens placed on calculations behind the scenes, but this seems more like a "balancing" nerf than a resolution of lag.

So my questions are:

Why shouldn't TWF be far superior DPS to THF given the greater investment and opportunity costs associated with that style?

Why doesn't the double strike chance calculation erode the DPS lag benefit of removing the 2nd physics check?

If THF fighting, in your view, should be greater DPS than TWF, by how much on average? And if so, why go TWF?

[Ollathir]

You're saying that like if Turbine didn't recognize that openly in the OP.

Doing one beneficial change does not prevent you from doing a second one. Perhaps you don't think that the nerf is beneficial, but Eladrin does. Telling stuff like this won't sway him. He wants to fix the lag and improve the balance between TWF and THF. You're telling him to give up one of his goals, without providing any argument as to why.

From what I've seen he's only responded to posts fomenting the swap of speed boosts for Double Strike bonuses. Which IMO works great, so long as you have lucky die rolls and enjoy slowing the game down.


He stated:

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.

Extreme dominance is realistically not the case. You simply dont look to load your party with TWF's for end game content. Currently if your goal is for maximum DPS, you grind the hell out Vons and get an ESoS, if your already a THF an your not lucky enough or able to run it enough, GS GA, GS GS, GS GC work pretty well for you, situationally better that an ESoS. Not once has it been mentioned by anyone of merit that any change to ESoS will be forthcoming, until such time, get over it, its here to stay and should be included in the discussion of balancing.

Generally when leveling melee, I never switch to TWF till level 8-10. The extra off-hand vorpal/disruptor helps to keep things moving at a pace I am comfortable with. Up until then the to-hit bonuses with THF just work better. I've been playing the game long enough to know where I want to go, and getting there slower really isn't fun for me.
Being 40% less effective with off-hand attacks till lvl 11 (if you feat swap) or level 15 as a Rogue, Monk just doesnt seem worth it. If you make a character a TWF, you generally expect that if you are taking a - to-hit for doing so, your gonna be using your off-hand regularly.

[SquelchHU]

Could be that the bug causing the "DPS-lag" actually originates from the aggro-code. Makes kinda sense, you got a boatload of ppl hammering down damage on a stationary boss and if the aggro-code is poorly written I can definately see that there could be some issues with that.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if the portals check for aggro as well they probably inherit the properties of a living mob but with 0 attacks.

hope this is in one of the many avenues that Eladrin is investigating.

Cheers,
-Daz

According to the portal challenge thread portals DO aggro.

You normally do not notice this because:

Portals do not attack.
Portals have 100% fort.

But according to it if you're a dark Monk with Tharne's and/or Guile, and you do the -25% fort thingy you still won't get SA if you're soloing. Though you might get it in a group.

I'm not familiar with the details as I don't have a dark monk, and don't really care too much about portal DPS. But I do remember those words.

[Aaxeyu]

Well, i may be missing something because i dont really know about top dps thf, but how i see things:

Barbs have +18 str from rage + frenzy +dead frenzy, +2 str from capstone, extra damage from greater vicious, extra 6 damage from power attack enhancements, better critical profile.

Fighters have +6 str from power surge +3 str from enhancements, +4 damage from weapon specialization, and haste boost, i dont think haste boost that is burst dps can compensate all the other stuff, though as i said, i may be missing many things...

You are missing many things.

[Angelus_dead]

According to the portal challenge thread portals DO aggro.

Oh, how so?

But according to it if you're a dark Monk with Tharne's and/or Guile, and you do the -25% fort thingy you still won't get SA if you're soloing. Though you might get it in a group.

According to the developer announcement, Fortification debuffs such as from a dark monk only apply for enabling critical hits, not sneak attacks,

[SquelchHU]

The problem is that always "adjusting up" will eventually lead to power creep. Eventually, you have to nerf.

While it is true that constantly adjusting up leads to power creep, power creep is not always bad. Particularly in the context of MMOs, where power creep itself is content.

Ilvl roughly equal to clvl 1-60, then scaling rapidly from there to reach up to ilvl 264 at clvl 80, anyone?

And while DDO is not quite so blatant as WoW about this, there is still a very definite power creep over the levels both from the levels themselves and from the equipment available at these levels. And it's that that keeps people playing, particularly over long periods. Hint: People don't run the Shroud multiple times for 'fun', or anything like that. They do it for character improvement. As in, power creep.

Now in this case, THF seemed fine to me (better for Epic SoS, but let's ignore that item).

Nerfing TWF ticks off everyone with a TWF character, aka most people. It also nerfs other characters in a cascade, such as the healers who now have to use more resources since DPS is down. And if you think enemy HP will be reduced to compensate, keep dreaming. We're still waiting on the lower mob to hits supposed to come with ROLL A BARB Blows.

Buffing THF makes those with THF happy without really ticking off many people. It also means ever increasing numbers being thrown around but welcome to MMOs.

But the real reason why I suspect most people are upset here is not the TWF nerf (though there is also that) but the dirty politics inherent to the way they chose to approach the community about it.

[mjrepro]

No, GTWF gave four hooks, not three. So total eight attacks in a full sequence. Just picking up two weapons gave you six attacks (but with massive minuses to hit of you didn't have TWF), ITWF gave you seven attacks in the sequence (four main-hand, three of the half-strength hooks).

Now it will instead be a percentage chance on your main hand attacks that the off-hand attack will go off "with-it", or not. For GTWF that chance is 80%, Then there are asorted bells and whistles to sort of push that up a little for the Ones Chosen By the Devs.

So what if just picking up two weapons, STILL gave you six attacks from the vizual, and the percentages are just added in? Would that work?

[Angelus_dead]

But the real reason why I suspect most people are upset here is not the TWF nerf (though there is also that) but the dirty politics inherent to the way they chose to approach the community about it.

It was only "dirty" to the extent that maybe the TWF change should've been in the first paragraph of the announcement instead of halfway down.

[Borror0]

Extreme dominance is realistically not the case. You simply dont look to load your party with TWF's for end game content. Currently if your goal is for maximum DPS, you grind the hell out Vons and get an ESoS

It's clear, from the context of that statement, that Eladrin purposefully exclude the ESoS from that statement as it is "the extreme outlier." It is true that, without the ESoS, THF and TWF are pretty far apart. While the ESoS did change that, it is an overpowered weapon by most standards.

Not once has it been mentioned by anyone of merit that any change to ESoS will be forthcoming, until such time, get over it, its here to stay and should be included in the discussion of balancing.

It's safe to assume that changes will be seen, whether by improving single-handed weapons to that standard or nerfing the ESoS, but a designer does not drop such a bomb on the forums without having the intent of addressing the problem in the future.

[SquelchHU]

Then why do the devs think it's too powerful?

If you can tell them why they are wrong you might be able to prevent the nerf.

SquelchHU casts Time Warp!

Time distorted, as a view of the past appeared!

Devs: So guys, we're releasing this new Wizard PRC. It's called Pale Master. We think it's awesome.

Players: Hm, this is ok. But it could use some improvements. *details*

Devs: Yeah?

The developers attack with Nerf Bat!

Pale Master's viability decreased by 50!

Players: Um... what?

Several months of mocking Fail Master quite blatantly everywhere later...

Devs: Wait, what do you mean it's not awesome? I never heard this before.

[Thrudh]

Well, i may be missing something because i dont really know about top dps thf, but how i see things:

Barbs have +18 str from rage + frenzy +dead frenzy, +2 str from capstone, extra damage from greater vicious, extra 6 damage from power attack enhancements, better critical profile.

Fighters have +6 str from power surge +3 str from enhancements, +4 damage from weapon specialization, and haste boost, i dont think haste boost that is burst dps can compensate all the other stuff, though as i said, i may be missing many things...

It's +8 STR from power surge, +6 damage from weapon specialization (fighters get enhancements that add to the weapon specialization feat damage), +4 to damage when using THF signature weapon, +8 to damage (before multipliers) *** a THF crit... Extended crit-range, and more glancing blows...

Plus 9 or so 30% Haste Boosts...

And 10% attack speed from capstone... (Before these changes come in anyway)

[Cyr]

It was only "dirty" to the extent that maybe the TWF change should've been in the first paragraph of the announcement instead of halfway down.

No it was "dirty" all around. Eladrin used this to intentionally gain cover for this nerf.

It is also dirty politics because he threatened a GS nerf instead of the TWF nerf.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. It's class warfare just like DA was. It's all the zergers fault. Now it's all the dpser's fault. Hey you like raids, it's your fault (wow no new raids since mod 9 give any clues here)... Hey you like to maximize your character, it's your fault.

IF dps lag is being caused by dps (as in bad coding doing calculations in truly backwards ways, bad data handling, or bad transmission of data methods) then the solution can not be to just nerf dps. This will never fix the problem. MMO's always have to scale to keep their end game progressive and keep players playing. If this is the cause of dps lag then Eladrin is doing nothing to truly fix anything.

If it's all in the physics checks then there is no logic to putting this nerf in with the lag fix except as 'pork barrel spending'. If there still needs to be more done to reduce the physics checks then why are haste boosts not being addressed here or madstone boots? Why is it grabbing multiple targets on a non glancing blow attack? It surely takes much more processing time to calculate the entire matrix of enemies within your swing range then it would to calculate the first target within your swing range or your targetted target->first target within if targetted is out of range.

[SquelchHU]

Oh, how so?


According to the developer announcement, Fortification debuffs such as from a dark monk only apply for enabling critical hits, not sneak attacks,

Both are flagged as 'precision damage' so that would be very odd. If that was the case, then it would not prove that portals aggro, but wouldn't prove that they didn't either.

Given that they're probably coded like a mob (except their 'attack' is summon mobs and they don't move) they probably do aggro but it doesn't prove anything conclusively.

[Angelus_dead]

Both are flagged as 'precision damage'

Where'd you get that from?

Given that they're probably coded like a mob (except their 'attack' is summon mobs and they don't move) they probably do aggro

Yes, most likely they do.

[Natashaelle]

It's +8 STR from power surge, +6 damage from weapon specialization (fighters get enhancements that add to the weapon specialization feat damage), +4 to damage when using THF signature weapon, +8 to damage (before multipliers) *** a THF crit... Extended crit-range, and more glancing blows...

Plus 9 or so 30% Haste Boosts...

And 10% attack speed from capstone... (Before these changes come in anyway)

pah !!! these cookie-cutter barbarians are pale like milksops next to the awesome uber power of a good dex-based 2WF ranger !!!

...

(maybe)

....

(... not.)