Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Gercho]

Sigh.

The DEV who has 10x the info any forum number cruncher thinks they have, said EXTREMELY close. Not relatively close.

They said that when they proposed the first numbers that put off hand procs at 55% for most classes... with the 80% that is right now, they rebalanced it and shouldnt be extremely close anymore...

[SteeleTrueheart]

B - Barbs are an issue imo, cause they are the highest THF dps, so when twf compares against THF they are comparing themselves with barbs, if barbs get nerfed, then suddenly twf comparisons are much better

While I understand your points and how they are mostly one day to be addressed. I am not comparing my build to a barb. I am comparing my build now to what the same build will be after the nerf. Or the same character swapped from TWF to THF. That is what I do not like.

[Coldin]

Sigh.

The DEV who has 10x the info any forum number cruncher thinks they have, said EXTREMELY close. Not relatively close.

Fine. Replace relatively with extremely in my former post. Oh look! My point remains the same.

Edit: Btw...that was during the first pass of the numbers. They've improved considerably since then. (55% to 80+%). So I'm betting that "extremely close" isn't quite so close anymore.

[Angelus_dead]

Yes they do sound like interesting alternatives and if they were going to implement interesting alternatives at the same time as this nerf it would be a valid point.

Incorrect. Regardless of the timeframe for adding new interesting feat choices, an STWF feat will get in the way of players actually training the feat.

Just look: twf 1, itwf 2, gtwf 3, stwf 4, pa 5, ic 6, tough 7. That's all the feats most race/class combos will ever get. To make a new feat that's appealing enough to drop one of those seven means it will probably have to be so good that it's overpowered for anyone who can take it without making that kind of sacrifice.

[mjrepro]

So if offhand attacks are going to be chances, do you still attack with both weapons? Will your animation and the weapons you are using correspond? And if this will just change the additional "hooks" that are there, why is that a bad thing, since if you have a 4 attack strand, and GTWF gives you three additional "hooks", it would then only grant 75% extra attacks which is less than the devs are granting with the changes.

Just a thought, and probably will be flamed and told I am stupid, but alas, it ist he idea of a "stupid" man.

[Consumer]

I know that its a lot of ifs, but all the ifs were addressed somehow in this same thread, about your points:

A - twitching could still be better than not twitching after the nerf, but it will be worst than before anyway, like 15% worst, so twitching benefit will be around 5% instead of 20%, i m ok with that

B - Barbs are an issue imo, cause they are the highest THF dps, so when twf compares against THF they are comparing themselves with barbs, if barbs get nerfed, then suddenly twf comparisons are much better

C and D, if you want to exclude all epic weapons, then you dont need my third if, i mean, twf without epic weapons will be better than thf without epic weapons, the problem now is that if both have access to epic weapons, then the thf cuts the difference, which is bad, around the same difference should be kept if you compare two non epic, or two epic chars...

A - 10-11% DPS loss for twitching barbs

B - Fighters are and will remain highest THF DPS and highest overall DPS.

C - if the devs have said they went overboard with epic SoS they wont make a one handed weapon able to rival it.

[Gercho]

While I understand your points and how they are mostly one day to be addressed. I am not comparing my build to a barb. I am comparing my build now to what the same build will be after the nerf. Or the same character swapped from TWF to THF. That is what I do not like.

Well, not sure what your build is (if you posted it i missed it) but i m pretty sure than for non barbs, swithching from twf to thf with the current changes will drop dps (assuming twitching is nerfed)

Obviously, if you compare your current build against the build after the nerf, well, you will be nerfed :P

[krud]

While I understand your points and how they are mostly one day to be addressed. I am not comparing my build to a barb. I am comparing my build now to what the same build will be after the nerf. Or the same character swapped from TWF to THF. That is what I do not like.

But they'll still be the best option. like putting restrictor plates on stock cars. Someone will still win the race, and most likely it will be the same people that were winning before. maybe they won't win as fast, but they'll still end up in 1st place.

[k1ngp1n]

The question I keep running into, is, will TWF have a chance to proc an offhand attack on a doublestrike? That is to say, a Tempest III ranger according to the new table has a 5% doublestrike, 100% offhand. Will those doublestrikes proc an offhand at 100% as well?

A fighter will have 80% offhand, 10% doublestrike. Will the fighter have a 80% offhand proc on that 10%?

[redoubt]

Incorrect. Regardless of the timeframe for adding new interesting feat choices, an STWF feat will get in the way of players actually training the feat.

Just look: twf 1, itwf 2, gtwf 3, stwf 4, pa 5, ic 6, tough 7. That's all the feats most race/class combos will ever get. To make a new feat that's appealing enough to drop one of those seven means it will probably have to be so good that it's overpowered for anyone who can take it without making that kind of sacrifice.

Throw in another wrinkle... what's a dex based build to do?

Don't forget the finesse feat... no toughness for you. And most likely you have to drop PA to get CE (assuming the dex build is an AC build as well.)

[Gercho]

A - 10-11% DPS loss for twitching barbs

B - Fighters are and will remain highest THF DPS and highest overall DPS.

C - if the devs have said they went overboard with epic SoS they wont make a one handed weapon able to rival it.

A - didnt did the math, just followed what others said, so you may be right

B - If you consider the hidden barbarian capstone, then barbarians are higher dps than fighters, if you doubt it, get some thf fighter to beat the barbarians in Shade dps challenge... (all the top positions are pure thf barbarians)

C - if the devs aknowledge that epic SoS is overpowered they need to nerf it, or make equivalent one hand weapons...

[Coldin]

The question I keep running into, is, will TWF have a chance to proc an offhand attack on a doublestrike? That is to say, a Tempest III ranger according to the new table has a 5% doublestrike, 100% offhand. Will those doublestrikes proc an offhand at 100% as well?

A fighter will have 80% offhand, 10% doublestrike. Will the fighter have a 80% offhand proc on that 10%?

They should. Eladrin made no indication that off-hand and doublestrikes were mutually exclusive.

[Consumer]

B - If you consider the hidden barbarian capstone, then barbarians are higher dps than fighters, if you doubt it, get some thf fighter to beat the barbarians in Shade dps challenge... (all the top positions are pure thf barbarians)

Hidden Barb alacrity is already used in DPS calcs, Barbs are not higher DPS than Fighters.

As far as I remember a THF Fighter hasnt entered Shades DPS contest, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gercho]

They should. Eladrin made no indication that off-hand and doublestrikes were mutually exclusive.

As a matter of fact, Eladrin made clear that double strikes only apply to main hand, and that proc attacks dont proc another attack, so a double strike attack wont proc an off hand attack, or another double strike attack.

[Gercho]

Hidden Barb alacrity is already used in DPS calcs, Barbs are not higher DPS than Fighters.

As far as I remember a THF Fighter hasnt entered Shades DPS contest, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, i would like a third opinion about this . I find odd that no fighter thf submitted entrances to the shade contest, i assumed it was because they couldnt beat the barbarians, but there could be other reasons for sure...

[Coldin]

As a matter of fact, Eladrin made clear that double strikes only apply to main hand, and that proc attacks dont proc another attack, so a double strike attack wont proc an off hand attack, or another double streak attack.

Right. It would be a bit silly if a double strike could have another chance of doing another double strike, which itself has a chance of dealing a doublestrike, and so on and so forth. It'd be cool...but silly.

[R0cksteady]

Well, i would like a third opinion about this . I find odd that no fighter thf submitted entrances to the shade contest, i assumed it was because they couldnt beat the barbarians, but there could be other reasons for sure...

Regardless, TWF does more damage than a Barbarian in either style.

[SteeleTrueheart]

They said that when they proposed the first numbers that put off hand procs at 55% for most classes... with the 80% that is right now, they rebalanced it and shouldnt be extremely close anymore...

Fine. Replace relatively with extremely in my former post. Oh look! My point remains the same.

Edit: Btw...that was during the first pass of the numbers. They've improved considerably since then. (55% to 80+%). So I'm betting that "extremely close" isn't quite so close anymore.

Your point would not remain the same.

However.

I did forget to take into account that the %'s were changed after Eladrin made that statement and he did not edit the statement. Thank you both for reminding me.

@A_D

No I have not read all 3200 posts as I work, play DDO and have a family. I can assure you I have read about 1600 posts of the thread and that the time it took me to read all that is as much time as I am willing to give to a computer game discussion forum.

[Macushi]

This whole discussion is quite funny actually.

I played in Europe about 3 years for over 300 raids including about 100 shrouds and some TOD. We NEVER had any LAG. We had very heavy DPS builds, shroud part 3 was done in first round.
No lag in Europe, better internet connections = no need to change anything.
Big lag in US and not so great connections = you completely mess up the combat mechanics

In other words game works just fine if you just have good enough connections/servers.
Pls don't make any suggested TWF changes, I really dont like the idea.

[Cyr]

Update 5 releases June 28th.

A month to comment, playtest, make modifications to, playtest again, and comment on the largest change to DDO combat mechanics to date. Yet we are told time and again that even small changes require many months to implement (or small bug fixes).

Here's to hopping that this one does bring the game to a screaming halt due to some bug.