Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[SteeleTrueheart]

You miss the point. STWF is not bad because it breaks balance between twf and thf, but because it reduces the number of viable options.

Options? What options?

Every melee takes either the THF feats or the TWF feats. Those 2 feat chains are the only options. If they become balanced in DPS terms then THF becomes greater than TWF as the requirements are cheaper.

This limits build options, as then the only sensible option is to be a THF build.

[Gercho]

Options? What options?

Every melee takes either the THF feats or the TWF feats. Those 2 feat chains are the only options. If they become balanced in DPS terms then THF becomes greater than TWF as the requirements are cheaper.

This limits build options, as then the only sensible option is to be a THF build.

Introducing another must take feat, is killing options, at least for all but fighters, a lot of chars have only 7 feats to chose, and they will need to spend 4 on STWF to be able to be max twf dps... add power attack improved critical and toughness, and thats it, all your feats are gone, if you are human, take khopesh...
So, the point is that twf should be better to thf without the need to take yet another feat...

[Angelus_dead]

Options? What options?

Every melee takes either the THF feats or the TWF feats. Those 2 feat chains are the only options. If they become balanced in DPS terms then THF becomes greater than TWF as the requirements are cheaper.

This limits build options, as then the only sensible option is to be a THF build.

And how's that supposed to have anything to do with whether STWF would increase or reduce the number of viable options?

[Inkblack]

I'm having a difficult time seeing the nerf. It seems to me that my TWF chars got better, while my THF were the one that caught the nerf bat via the glancing blow change. I was late to the party though since I was on vacation, but I did try to make it through the thread.

My melee:
20 GTWF Rogue
20 Tempest 3
20 THF Paladin (KoTC3)
18 GTWF Barb (Crit Rage 2, haven't respecced yet)
18 THF Fighter (Strategic Kensai 3)

I think (need to verify) each of these gets 5 main hand attacks per cycle. Therefore the Rogue and Barbarian get 4 off-hand attacks per cycle, instead of the 3 under the old system. Even if it is 4 main hand attacks (I got confused reading the documentation), they get 3.2 attacks instead of 3, an improvement of 0.2 off-hand attacks per cycle.

The Ranger gets 5/5 attacks? That is an improvement over 5/4 correct? (This is where I think I'm really missing something.) Even with the lost 10% speed, I think this is a very slight improvement.

The Paladin and Fighter lose the glancing blows for the "twitch" fighting, which I didn't do anyway. The chance to double attack on smites makes the pally a slight improvement in the zeal versus double attacks, same with the stuns/trips on the fighter for alacrity versus double attacks.

So what am I missing? We can take this to PM, since it was probably covered somewhere in the previous 3,000+ posts. Please excuse my idiocy.

Thanks in advance,
Ink

[Arintal]

SO feat nerfs in diguise of "LAG" so ........ . Wont comment it. HOW YOU CAN HAVE LAG PORBLEMS WITH HEAVY INSTANCED GAME.WHERE YOU CAN LOAD EACH INSTANCE INTO DIFFRENT PC. LOOK AT GUILD WARS OR EVE.

[Borror0]

Every non ranger TWF currently has the benefits of STWF in the game as it is now and after this change they will be "gimped" or "greatly behind" as they will not have access to it. Meaning to be an optimum TWF once again you must go ranger.

Rangers are the ones hit the hardest by this change.

[Angelus_dead]

I think (need to verify) each of these gets 5 main hand attacks per cycle.

Uh, no. There are four mainhand attacks per animation loop. Your Rogue is going from 4+4 = 8 to 4+4*0.8 = 4+3 = 7.

[SteeleTrueheart]

To give players more choices by creating more attractive feats is a smart goal. But adding STWF is a poor approach to that goal compared to the alternative of fixing the existing weak feats (or adding new ones):
Slicing Blow- It would be nice if it gave a noticeable DPS increase when fighting single large enemies.
Cleave- It would be nice if it gave a real DPS increase when fighting multiple enemies at once.
Great Cleave, Whirlwind- ditto
Improved Sunder- If it had a choice to debuff the enemy's weapon damage that might be useful.
Improved Feint- What if it were possible for highly-skilled Rogues to continue doing regular DPS even while holding main aggro?
Hamstring- May as well buff it to reduce both movement and attack speed.

Aren't those choices more entertaining than STWF? Yet each of them is probably less powerful than +20% offhand rate would be. To add STWF, even if it was somehow balanced to be a fair and interesting build choice, would still take away feat slots that could have been used to learn stuff that actually makes combat more involved than simply attacking faster and faster.

Yes they do sound like interesting alternatives and if they were going to implement interesting alternatives at the same time as this nerf it would be a valid point. However their is no mention of these sorts of changes being implemented in any near future. (The announced feats means they have done a pass over the feats and probably will not return to looking at them again for a while)

So since there are no valid alternatives to THF or TWF balancing them DPS wise limits TWF more.

Other topics:
Your suggestion of increasing the to hit penalties would hurt some builds like paladins more than others since rogues/monks use weap finesse and their ever growing Dex score and fighters get many to hit bonuses.

Your improved feint idea is especially nice. Something like what a deception weapon does now, makes a mob % susceptible to SA even if focused on you for a short amount of time. Have you put these thoughts in the suggestion thread somewhere?

[Borror0]

Have you put these thoughts in the suggestion thread somewhere?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=230088

[SteeleTrueheart]

So, the point is that twf should be better to thf without the need to take yet another feat...

So answer this. Without STWF being added, will it be better than THF after the change?

[Natashaelle]

Natashealle, sorry to say it but there never has been any DPS lag in Europe. From what i have seen as ive played you are wrong.

I'm afraid there is, although it is quite clear now, particularly after the input from Razcar (which was very constructive and informative, unlike the "input" from some others), that it has nothing like the severity of the lag that is encountered on the US servers -- I can only recall one single occasion where I have seen total freeze up when fighting against Harry, and the duration of it was too short to cause party wipe on that occasion.

THIS POST from the European forums presents what looks like an objective assessment of the typical difference between US version DPS lag and its Euro cousin :

worst i've seen on keeper was a very choppy health bar on the victim. instead of smoothly going down from all the min II whomping sticks beating on the target, the health was dropping in large chunks as all the damage was lumped into one update. that tends to happen in a group that can get a run down to 20 mins or less.

on thelanis i've seen real DPS lag in both the shroud and ToD, its as you describe and you wind up not even knowing if your dead or alive.

This shows that the dps lag exists in Europe, but also that it is not so game breaking as it tends to be in US.

Typically, the worst that can occur in a normal medium dps run is that you can occasionally run with some fairly inexperienced healers who may not realise that healing needs to spammed regardless of what's showing on people's individual health bars, which cannot be fully relied on due to potential lag.

But you do occasionally see several people all suddenly dying simultaneously, due to damage being suddenly dealt to them in one big catch-up package which can cause wipe ; and if there are other sources of lag simultaneously, such as unusually large numbers of people logged on at once, or codemasters database management screw-ups, or whatever, then the raids in question can become simply unplayable (this is VERY rare).

---

People should take notice of the report of dps lag on Lammania, given that the active player base on that server is a *fraction* of the numbers playing in Europe.

---

The ONLY point of this tangent, from my point of view, has been to confirm that the description by the devs of the causes of this particular type of lag are borne out by lag that can, and does occasionally, occur on the most underpopulated DDO servers.

That's it ; and I will therefore contribute no more bandwidth towards establishing this ; not least, given that there are some people who are showing such a willful desire to attack this feedback as well as myself personally.

It is also clear, from the results of this tangential discussion, that the lag that people are generally encountering must have several different sources, because the dps lag per se, where it can be observed in action free of any other compounding sources of lag, as it exists on the more underpopulated servers, is insufficient in and of itself to make the raids in question unplayable. I cannot comment much further on this particular point, given that I do not play on the US servers, and I have not been very much exposed to the sorts of lag that can be found there ; although the limited effect of the dps lag on gaming on the more underpopulated servers would logically suggest that there may be deeper server/networking issues that Turbine may need to address.

[Baahb3]

It puts twf builds at most one bonus point below max (16 vs 18 starting base str). Oh yeah that is HUGE . You are also getting two weapon effects that you can put on your shroud weapons, not to mention the ability to mix and match weapons for different situations. I don't know about you, but I got more than two weapons in my inventory. Having trouble hitting the epic mobs? Wield destruction and improved destruction at the same time for -12 to mob AC. Can a barbarian do that with one weapon? No.
..."b..b.bb..ut the barbarian's gonna steal my kill if I'm destructing them while he's dpsing" .

Turbine has a history of nerfing stuff if that dominates over everything else. TWF has been doing that for quite some time now. Now it'll be just a little better, instead of a lot better. The ones who really should be complaining are the monks and rogues. They get the biggest shaft, not the ranger exploiter builds, et al.

+1 to you sir for showing common sense among this mass hysteria!

[Coldin]

So answer this. Without STWF being added, will it be better than THF after the change?

Yes.

[Cyr]

The new system already has lots of builds that are screwed. It is dishonest or naive to claim otherwise. Eladrin's stated goal, to bring the dps of TWF and THF to about the same level will result in TWF builds being hosed as it has many more requirements to achieve top dps in builds then THF does. The stated goal and the follow up by Eladrin has me convinced that this is happening pretty much as is and that more TWF nerfs will continue to trickle into the game. Note that all the alacrity changes so far have been implented to help THF more then TWF by using only double strike mechanics. I expect more of these effects to be transfered over time. Each one cutting off a little bit of TWF dps from one build or another.

The writing is on the wall. There is going to be a cycle where it just will not be worth playing TWF toons. Roll your THF toons now or wait a year or two until THF toons completely dominate end game and the decision is made to over swing on the mark again and nerf THF to oblivion.

Example, was talking to one of my guildies last night. His main is a dwarven intimitank. He TWF's now because it narrowly beat out THF dps for his toon in the past. He uses dwarven axes to save a feat. Right now he is figuring out the specifics of his LR to go THF because the incremental changes to THF and TWF have completely shifted his dps picture. He's finding out that he gets to save a feat (OTWF), do more dps when in S&B mode (glancing blows with DA), and do more dps in dps mode then he would TWF. This is a case in point of the discussion about TWF having more sacrifices then THF. It is also a telling picture of the off optimal dps drop off being greater for TWF since he is thinking about not getting the third THF feat which would be a crazy choice to make for TWF.

[grodon9999]

Rangers are the ones hit the hardest by this change.

I know we're getting screwed, but worse than rogues and monks?

[Coldin]

I know we're getting screwed, but worse than rogues and monks?

Rogues only lose 20% of off-hand attacks. Monks lose 20% and some speed, but gain 10% double strike attacks. Comparatively, Rangers are losing something like 30%.

Of course, in the end, rangers will still be ahead. They just won't be quite so far ahead.

[Razcar]

To give players more choices by creating more attractive feats is a smart goal. But adding STWF is a poor approach to that goal compared to the alternative of fixing the existing weak feats (or adding new ones):
Slicing Blow- It would be nice if it gave a noticeable DPS increase when fighting single large enemies.
Cleave- It would be nice if it gave a real DPS increase when fighting multiple enemies at once.
Great Cleave, Whirlwind- ditto
Improved Sunder- If it had a choice to debuff the enemy's weapon damage that might be useful.
Improved Feint- What if it were possible for highly-skilled Rogues to continue doing regular DPS even while holding main aggro?
Hamstring- May as well buff it to reduce both movement and attack speed.

Great suggestions. It is time to take these feats and make them work in this game. If barbarians are supposed to have higher DPS, then give fighters more options to choose from and work with. The standard feat load-out of DDO melees are now boringly standardised, because the current combat feats are either mandatory or totally pointless.

[Borror0]

I know we're getting screwed, but worse than rogues and monks?

TWF rogues get a relative buff. Double strike only applies to main hand, which means that TWF fighters, monks and paladins all lose 5% DPS but TWF rogues do not. As for monks, they do get hit harder than fighters, rogues and paladins because of ki generation but I'm not knowledgeable on monks enough to know if they are hit harder than rangers.

[grodon9999]

Rogues only lose 20% of off-hand attacks. Monks lose 20% and some speed, but gain 10% double strike attacks. Comparatively, Rangers are losing something like 30%.

Of course, in the end, rangers will still be ahead. They just won't be quite so far ahead.

One more dumb question - got a 12/6/2 I'm growing - will Tempest I actually give any benefit at all? Ram's might is still nice.

[Angelus_dead]

So answer this. Without STWF being added, will it be better than THF after the change?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the devs have only two choices: Add an STWF feat or reduce the ratio of offhand attacks.

They really have more possibilities before them, including granting the benefits of STWF without it requiring a feat slot. For a player to argue against the STWF feat does not necessarily imply endorsing any particular rate of offhand attacks.