Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Aesop]

Yes, cause its clearly something that's a side-effect of how the combat system is/was implemented. an Easy fix would be to slow down the first 3 attacks in the THF attack-chain (and speed up the last ones to compensate).

I'm sure there are a bunch of people out there who thinks twitch is a valid intended way of fighting, those people are pretty much the same people who thought that evasion in a full plate was working "as intended".

Cheers,
-Daz

well that's kind of a leap, but I understand.

There was a guy arguing at one point that it was ok for a non epic level rogue to take an epic level feat that he didn't meet the prereq for because it was a bonus feat and didn't specifically say that they had to meet the prerequisites.

I was thinking instead of slowing the first three attacks down that you'd just slow down 2 and speed up 4

I think slowing down 1 would look too silly

The problem with the current "fix" is that it does eliminate a valid combat tactic. Mobile Combat. I perfer mobile combat because it is more interactive. Twitch is more efficient, but Mobile Combat is more fun (to me).

So go ahead and eliminate Twitch, but don't take mobile combat with it.

My only concern is that people do enjoy it and if they still enjoy it with a somewhat diminished return then it could be a boon to go for that diminished return instead

[Borror0]

You realize that no one actually posts accurate DPS calculations now right?

I know. That's my point. Once upon a time, knowing by how much something increased your DPS was easy to tell. That was good because it meant most players could usually tell if something was beneficial or not. The more complicated it is to calculate DPS, the less people are in the ability to know if that is the best option for them. The existence of meaningful build choice only happen if people have knowledge of the outcome. If it's done randomly, on a guess, it's not really meaningful - it's random.

DPS calculations should be made simpler, so that people can have a good idea of their DPS, not made more complicated.

Yet there is a sizable population that actually enjoys twitching. Why completely remove it when you can just reduce its relative effectiveness (which is currently quite high) and make both styles happy?

The people who enjoy "twitching" generally don't enjoy "twitching" itself but like to keep their mind busy. Think about it: have you ever heard anyone defending "twitching" by saying that he finds the concept of moving back and forth for greater DPS quite enjoyable? No. It's about occupying mindspace and using player skills, not about moving back and forth for a better attack rate. In fact, I think even Shade would admit that the concept makes no sense at all even though he enjoys the gameplay.

Considering how boring certain fights are, that is more than understandable. While DDO is fun when mobs don't last long, the combat system collapses whenever the most effective tactic is to standstill and attack. In those moments, the only thing to do for many builds is to hold your right mouse button and then wait. That gets old fast.

When you say that "twitching" is too powerful, you're looking at the problem from the wrong angle. In fact, if anything, "twitching" should be more powerful, not less, since many people don't do it when they clearly should. The problem is that "twitching" isn't fun to most of the playerbase, even though its role is an important one.

"So why do you want to remove 'twitching' entirely if it has good traits?", you might ask.

Because it's a bad "feature." It looks silly; it's too repetitive to be enjoyable to most people yet rewards them for doing a not enjoyable task; it does not suggest competence from the design team to anyone briefed on the tactic; and because what it accomplishes can be done in other ways.

If you prefer, you could say that it's inherently flawed and whatever need it currently fulfills should be fulfilled by the design anyhow.

[Aesop]

I know. That's my point. Once upon a time, knowing by how much something increased your DPS was easy to tell. That was good because it meant most players could usually tell if something was beneficial or not. The more complicated it is to calculate DPS, the less people are in the ability to know if that is the best option for them. The existence of meaningful build choice only happen if people have knowledge of the outcome. If it's done randomly, on a guess, it's not really meaningful - it's random.

DPS calculations should be made simpler, so that people can have a good idea of their DPS, not made more complicated.

.

OK if attack rates remain constant and all you have is a total proc rae of whatever extra effect you are currently getting (Off Hand attack, Glancing Blow, Shield Bash whatever)... how is taking the average Proc Rate different from the calculations now?

You want calculations more simple then just give the relative information and the DPS formula.

Drop some of the extraneous damage modifiers like Blast and Lightning Strike, which cause larger levels of DPS discrepancy than any individual swing.

If turbine wanted people to calculate DPS easily they have the tools to do it. Just disclose the Proc Rates and modifiers and give the formula.

Saying that there shouldn't be modifiers because its too hard to calculate sounds a little silly on my end B.


**** it I have to go to work... I'll catch up later

Aesop

[SquelchHU]

OMG, you're right. There's nothing more to this game than DPS!

Now he gets it.

[Dazalarian]

The people who enjoy "twitching" generally don't enjoy "twitching" itself but like to keep their mind busy. Think about it: have you ever heard anyone defending "twitching" by saying that he finds the concept of moving back and forth for greater DPS quite enjoyable? No. It's about occupying mindspace and using player skills, not about moving back and forth for a better attack rate. In fact, I think even Shade would admit that the concept makes no sense at all even though he enjoys the gameplay.

Considering how boring certain fights are, that is more than understandable. While DDO is fun when mobs don't last long, the combat system collapses whenever the most effective tactic is to standstill and attack. In those moments, the only thing to do for many builds is to hold your right mouse button and then wait. That gets old fast.

Some very good points here.

My biggest concern about twitching is the fact that with a G15 (or similar) keyboard you can program it to do it all for you. its like auto-attack but with twitch baked in, press one key and sit back and enjoy your beverage.

This becomes even more true with the way the game is going (and has gone for the last years), mobs get more and more HP. In the end people just wanna get through the grind quests as smooth as possible and as fast. Not even the biggest twitch-fanatic can be arsed to sit and twitch for 20-30 minutes against the bosses in the raids in the future, cause that's where we're going.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Razcar]

You run into DPS lag a lot in the depths of darkness?

Ohhh that's mean. But funny-mean.

[chintao]

First, you really have to take the esos out of this equation. Second, why is THF only a viable option for Barbs?

Barbs are the ONLY class in game that has balanced abilities when it comes to TWF and THF. Strength and power attack damages are both perfectly balanced between the fighting styles.

Every other class in game is inherently better at TWF when you look at the class abilites:

Barbarian:
Rages (Str increase) - BALANCED FOR TWF or THF
Power Attack enhancements - BALANCED FOR TWF or THF
- damage enhancement is doubled for TWF but no one uses it in boss (DPS) situations -

Fighter:
Weapon specialization feats - double effect for TWF + 4 dmg
Weapon damage enhancements - double effect for TWF + 2 dmg
Racial damage enhancements - double effect for TWF + 2 dmg
- The only thing balanced is the Kensai enhancement line -

Paladin:
Divine might - double the effect for TWF + 2 - 8 dmg
Smites - hit twice when TWF + 67 dmg at lvl 20
Divine Sacrifices - hit twice when TWF + 9d6 at DSIII

Rogues:
Sneak Attack damage - doubles for TWF
Assassin Strikes - double for TWF

Cleric & Bard buffs:
buffs - double for TWF

We can leave rangers out of the discussion obviously as they are inherently built for TWF.

Instead of nerfing attack and off hand percentages why not just balance the other class abilities and make THF viable for other classes? This would mean doubling the class abilities for the THF style. I dont think anyone is going to scream bloody murder about that... and it would open up the THF style for other classes besides the Barb.

my 2 cents.

[mjrepro]

Lets just fix the game. Remove ranger monk pal rogue. Lets leave fighter wiz sorc clr fav soul and bard for added damage there now your nerfing will be complete. Only have sword bord and thf. Lets not let any one pick what they whant due to it may over power. Thats how I fell about all of this.

I have been playing since opening day of this game seen alot of nerfs go on so worked out some just plane bit's the big one. But from what I under stand of this nerf is that what ever wep is in my off hand will not matter due to it will never be used for fighting only my main hand. If I wrong then I read things wrong. But I like the end build that I have and just don't whant to see it get trashed 18ranger 1 monk 1 wiz. I use warhammer as my weapon. To see any of my dps go will hurt due to I do solo alot and hate waiting for groups to form.

If I am missen the point on this nerf pm. I realy have not read much on this just listen to a lot of player's talk and it's got me all mad.

Apart from the flaming about how this is X and this is Y, I think this hits the truest point. I like my weapons that I have in both hands, and I like having both hit a target. Now you are going to make me choose which I like more and keep make sure it is in the main hand to hit? booo

[krud]

Also, if they go through with STWF Fighters will be doing more damage with TWF than rangers anyway.

It doesn't boil down to it. eSOS puts THF OVER TWF, and my problem is regular weapons being equal to TWF

Have you run the numbers or are you just pulling these assumptions out of thin air (or more likely from where the sun don't shine)? TWF will still be ahead of THF, just not by a huge amount as it is now.

Try going thru the calculations yourself before you make such claims.

[Razcar]

While we are talking about Twitching please don't confuse real twitch gameplay with the kind of ridiculous dry-humping that some THF:ers practice here in DDO.

"Twitch" and "twitch gameplay" are terms originating from first-person shooters and means using a direct control scheme for reacting and maneuvering quickly in response to game events. You can play that way here in DDO as well, since it has FPS controls (mouse look/strafing, jump and WASD).

It should not really be used as a synonym for this exploitive jerking (often done through macro keyboards by the way, even lamer) that fools the DDO attack chain mechanics - the term "twitch" has just been misused to give the THF attack chain exploit some credibility.

[R0cksteady]

Have you run the numbers or are you just pulling these assumptions out of thin air (or more likely from where the sun don't shine)? TWF will still be ahead of THF, just not by a huge amount as it is now.

Try going thru the calculations yourself before you make such claims.

Well yeah, I did. 110%/100% for fighter 105%/100% for Tempest. but that's ONLY if they bring out STWF. In which case it's actually only a 5% DPS cut for fighters. BUT STWF probably wont happen, they said they probably wont impliment it. And if they did, 19 Dex is a *****, makes you give up even more for TWF.

But yeah, it's obvious that without STWF, a 15% DPS cut puts THF at at LEAST equal to TWF. There's barely a difference now between THF Barbs and TWF Fighters in DPS.

[parvo]

How do you propose they are going to draw people into a game that just lost a massive amount of players? They already barely draw in any new players as it is.

Really? My guild has averaged one new player a day for almost a year now. Not all stay but many are trying it out.

[Krag]

First, you really have to take the esos out of this equation. Second, why is THF only a viable option for Barbs?

Barbs are the ONLY class in game that has balanced abilities when it comes to TWF and THF. Strength and power attack damages are both perfectly balanced between the fighting styles.

Every other class in game is inherently better at TWF when you look at the class abilites:

Barbarian:
Rages (Str increase) - BALANCED FOR TWF or THF
Power Attack enhancements - BALANCED FOR TWF or THF
- damage enhancement is doubled for TWF but no one uses it in boss (DPS) situations -

You forgot one important thing. Barbs are extremely feat-starved and twf requires 1 (2 if you count otwf) more feat(s). Without significant DPS increase there is no way a barb would consider twf viable.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Correct 3 of them are friends with one of the turbine moderators.

And since 1 of the biggest complaints of fighters is they end up with about 2-3 more feats than they can find good things for this would be good. There should always be more things and more feats and more enhancements that you want than you can take. That way you get to choose and make something the way you want. Right now fighters take all the good feats and then go well what should I make these last 2? cause I dont need 3 toughness feats. They not only should add STWF but about 10 others as well that they are missing so people can have choices and more important NOT have everything.

More feats that are useful like STWF would be is always a good option to add to the game. Since this one is probably even already mostly coded, the non implementation makes me a sad paladin.

[Grond]

So, you're crying because something else will be 'at least equal' to TWF?

We've heard this all before when changes have come... "No one will ever use web again!" "No one will ever use a batman build again!" "No one will ever play a cleric!" None of those held up, either.

[Dazalarian]

While we are talking about Twitching please don't confuse real twitch gameplay with the kind of ridiculous dry-humping that some THF:ers practice here in DDO.

"Twitch" and "twitch gameplay" are terms originating from first-person shooters and means quick reactions and maneuvering to respond to game events. You can play that way in DDO as well, since it has FPS controls (mouse look and WASD).

It should not really be used as a synonym to this exploitive jerking (often done through macro keyboards by the way, even lamer) thats fools the DDO attach chain mechanics - the term "twitch" has just been misused to give the THF attack chain exploit some credibility.

Word.
+1 rep.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Borror0]

More feats that are useful like STWF would be is always a good option to add to the game.

For there to be options, there has to be a choice. There is no choice involved with STWF. You take. Period.

[Gercho]

Say you're a game designer on a new game and you want to convince others to add that feature into the game, how do you explain to them that "twitching" would be a beneficial to gameplay? Please describe how the mechanism would work first, too.

The best I could come up with, personally, is this:
"I would like to add another feature to the game called 'Oscillation Acceleration.' Whenever a character moves slightly back and forth, he gains a +10% bonus to attack speed that it cannot have if standing still. Despite being counterintuitive and a bit goofy, I think it would be good for the game because it rewards players with the skills and patience to perform this overly repetitive act, over and over again. Gameplay test will show that most players don't like it, but they are not the targeted demographic. It's aimed at very hardcore players, who will like being special - having both the patience and skill to do something most would not do."

I don't know for you, but I would vote against adding such a feature to a game. Catering to hardcore players at the expense of casual players is rarely a good idea, especially with a mechanism that is both counterintuitive and looks goofy.

Totally agree +1

[SteeleTrueheart]

For there to be options, there has to be a choice. There is no choice involved with STWF. You take. Period.

No choice? Then technically there is no choice for a fighter to not take at the least the first TWF feat as that will remove all attack penalties and give you a 40% off hand attack rate.

On a TWF fighter. Sure take STWF. Because you are going TWF and you have the feats. Even though the +2 dex requirement would be costly.

On a Paladin. +2 Dex and ANOTHER feat slot is horribly expensive.

Still think the benefit outweighs the cost? Then up the cost. Min Dex 20? Min Dex 21? Pre req OTWF? Pre req Weap Focus? Even Dex rogues would start feeling the pain then.

[Dim_Mak]

I really don't know who actually started all this and what made devs start thinking about nerfing twf?
I mean, did this start from the people who actually donpt know how to build their toons and being inferior to those who know and invest..even money.. to make their toons better?
I mean what is the real reason for nerfing TWF?
Did someone say:
, omg his toon is better than mine. must be TWF or what??
Did you actually try to invest and build properly?
What is goin on.
I read a lot out of 150+ pages but I surely don't intend to read everything.
I don't care abotu those who are not paying to play this.
Their opinion shouldn't be taken at all.
Only those who pay and invest should be listened.
No offense to those f2p who spend hours and hours farming and improving their toons.
That makes tehm at the same level with VIP.
Cheers