Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[R0cksteady]

don't take an epic sos as a measure between the fighting styles. eladrin already admitted they went too far with it and i wouldn't be surprised if it were nerfed considerably. on top of that, you'll first have to get it which will be a lot of work.

i don't really get why people are complaining about the nerf anyway

ok, i get it, because they don't want their uber build become weaker

but still, a lot of people complain everything is too easy, that there is no challenge. usually it's those with the uber builds and i'm pretty sure those are the people that are complaining the most now. guys, be happy, the game will become a bit more challenging due to the nerf and more fun due to the hopefully reduced lag.

edit: btw my mains are a healer fvs and a 2wf kensai. so it's not that i'd "profit" from the change

See the thing is, TWF isn't uber. it's slightly ahead of THF thanks to twitching. and the requirements for it are much higher. Now it's getting a 15% DPS nerf on a fighter, which brings it down to a THF level. And there's now way it'll compete with barbarian DPS. It's not about losing an uber build, it's about all the time I spent making my fighter as good of DPS as I could get, and now it'll get better if I reroll as a Barbarian. Which is something I hate to do. ESPECIALLY if there's no way to get your GS ingredients back.

[Dazalarian]

I think Twitch should be an effective way to play and eek out that last bit of DPS, but it currently dominates the style. Gianing something like a 25% increase in effective DPS isn't gaining a benefit it is curb stompling anyuone that doesn't do it.

Yes its a really good idea to premiere a playstyle which is best implemented using a programmable keyboard which not everyone have access to. Good one.

If it was something that you had to learn and master and it was an actual skill from the player I could agree with the statement above, now it's just lame.

Cheers,
-Daz

[R0cksteady]

Visty, your argument is ineffective for two reasons:
1. Many players don't think that way.
2. The goal of this nerf is to satisfy those people, so you can't tell them to ignore it. It is aimed at them.

The right argument is not to say "it ain't that bad" but rather to inform them of what the goal is and tell him how he should react, if he wants his position to be heard. R0cksteady's position is bizarre because, instead of providing evidence showing the imbalance Eladrin's proposition would create, he is complaining about it which has no change to sway Eladrin. Obviously, Eladrin does care about balance or, otherwise, he wouldn't be using it as the justification for the nerf. If R0cksteady thinks this change would create imbalances, he should demonstrate that to be true rather than rant about being nerfed. It would be more productive.

My argument is pretty simple. TWF fighters were barely better DPS than THF barbarians. Now, TWF is goign to be on par or lower, while I still had to blow points on Dex, have a lower to-hit and spend a lot more time to make the GD weapons than a THB would be. It's not creating balance, it's taking away any reason to go TWF. Why put attribute points, make a to-hit sacrifice and spend more time grinding for weapons, when you can get the same DPS out of another build with far less build, AND have higher hit points, AND have those extra attribute points into something more useful, like Con, Wisdom or intelligence.

[bobbryan2]

How hard is it to send 12 devs home with a pc or laptop, give them a good character and have them enter the live server, from their homes, for a live test from outside the datacenter?

To test things not yet on live servers?

[Sinni]

isn't this exactely what i said? everyone that makes a char as good in one aspect as possible should know that this only holds true for the current state of the game. MMOs do change a lot over time, more than any other type of game. there will always be new stuff, nerfing of old stuff and so on. everyone should know and expect that. it WILL happen eventually
That's why i always kept my chars in a way that they will be able to adapt to changes, but on the other hand giving up some effectiveness. one result of that view was to stay pure even before the max lvl was 20. many multiclass builds were surpassed by other builds when monks were introduced or the level cap raised or new enhancments introduced. by staying pure i didn't get most out of it, but the build always was decent due to that.

and for me it's ok if a barbarian has higher dps then a fighter, because the fighter is more versitile due to the crapload of feats he gets.

but as i already said, i agree with the GS decomposition, maybe with some loss of ings

[BurningDownTheHouse]

If R0cksteady thinks this change would create imbalances, he should demonstrate that to be true rather than rant about being nerfed. It would be more productive.

Well, to be fair, it's very hard to demonstrate, because all we have to work with is guesses and incomplete observations. And I can understand a persons frustration with their toons being nerfed, it's only natural.

I think that large scale nerfs like this one should never happen. The correct way is to adjust up, and try to be careful not to create too much of a power creep. Taking something away after you put it in the game upsets people.
Upsetting your customers is not good...

[Vanshilar]

-Fix the twitch fighting glitch to keep the damage at least close to equal.

Admittedly I didn't end up poring through most of that big long thread. But if it's true that they're removing glancing blows while moving, then THF will lose around 10-15% of their DPS in many circumstances (depending on assumptions) when twitching. This is on the main target (glancing blows also hit the primary target) and assuming a barb.

Coincidentally or not, THF twitching gives about 10-15% more DPS (again, depending on assumptions) than not twitching currently.

In other words, if these things go through, it's likely a "global" 10-15% in DPS for both THF and TWF styles. If they do their job right the relative viability of both won't really change much.

Funny how the justification that Eladrin used for nerfing TWF is that it does more DPS than THF, yet the mechanic that THF used (twitching) to achieve parity will also be decreased in usefulness.

See the thing is, TWF isn't uber. it's slightly ahead of THF thanks to twitching. and the requirements for it are much higher. Now it's getting a 15% DPS nerf on a fighter, which brings it down to a THF level.

Eh if you're trying to bring up a point at least get your arguments correct. Twitching benefits THF, not TWF. They will also be (presumably) nerfing twitch which is hence a nerf of THF. In other words, if you're looking at those DPS calcs, you should try comparing TWF to a THF using the non-twitch attack speeds. That's roughly how much it'll be adjusted for THF.

It's somewhat of a shame if they remove the benefits of twitching, since it's a reward for player skill, whereas TWF having to craft twice as many weapons is just rewarding player grind.

[Antheal]

One way around it is to nerf Two-Handed Fighting by an equivalent amount, and also nerf monster HP by an equivalent amount, too.

Feel free to leave ranged and magic damage as it is, though.

[R0cksteady]

Admittedly I didn't end up poring through most of that big long thread. But if it's true that they're removing glancing blows while moving, then THF will lose around 10-15% of their DPS in many circumstances (depending on assumptions) when twitching. This is on the main target (glancing blows also hit the primary target) and assuming a barb.

Coincidentally or not, THF twitching gives about 10-15% more DPS (again, depending on assumptions) than not twitching currently.

In other words, if these things go through, it's likely a "global" 10-15% in DPS for both THF and TWF styles. If they do their job right the relative viability of both won't really change much.

Funny how the justification that Eladrin used for nerfing TWF is that it does more DPS than THF, yet the mechanic that THF used (twitching) to achieve parity will also be decreased in usefulness.



Eh if you're trying to bring up a point at least get your arguments correct. Twitching benefits THF, not TWF. They will also be (presumably) nerfing twitch which is hence a nerf of THF. In other words, if you're looking at those DPS calcs, you should try comparing TWF to a THF using the non-twitch attack speeds. That's roughly how much it'll be adjusted for THF.

It's somewhat of a shame if they remove the benefits of twitching, since it's a reward for player skill, whereas TWF having to craft twice as many weapons is just rewarding player grind.

I know twitch fighting benefits THF, not TWF. i was saying that was the reason THF did almost as much damage as TWF. Which is **** in the first place, since you give up a lot to go TWF.

Sure, removing glancing blows while moving will lower some DPS on two handers. but when Two handers are doing more damage to a single enemy anyway, why does it matter if it's doing even more damage since it has glancing blows? Sure, it's getting nerfed a bit, but against a single enemy THF will be on top, and against crowds, if you're not twitching you'll be doing more damage because of glancing blows, and if you are twitching you'll be doing more damage tot hat single enemy than a TWF anyway.

So how is this balance? why would ANYONE be a TWF fighter than a THF barb when Barbs do more damage with less sacrafice and work involved? Twitching is hardly a skill, it takes about 30 seconds to perfect once you're told how it's done.

[TechNoFear]

My argument is pretty simple. TWF fighters were barely better DPS than THF barbarians. Now, TWF is goign to be on par or lower, while I still had to blow points on Dex, have a lower to-hit and spend a lot more time to make the GD weapons than a THB would be. It's not creating balance, it's taking away any reason to go TWF. Why put attribute points, make a to-hit sacrifice and spend more time grinding for weapons, when you can get the same DPS out of another build with far less build, AND have higher hit points, AND have those extra attribute points into something more useful, like Con, Wisdom or intelligence.

There is supposed to be a difference between Barbarians and Fighters (and you should compare like to like for your argument to be valid).

I suggest you compare a TWF fighter to a THW fighter (not Barb).

I think they are now roughly equal in DPS with the TWF more effective where effects like vorpal and stunning work.

[R0cksteady]

One way around it is to nerf Two-Handed Fighting by an equivalent amount, and also nerf monster HP by an equivalent amount, too.

Feel free to leave ranged and magic damage as it is, though.

I wouldn't mind that idea. Just kick twitching out the window, and all would be well.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

One way around it is to nerf Two-Handed Fighting by an equivalent amount, and also nerf monster HP by an equivalent amount, too.

Feel free to leave ranged and magic damage as it is, though.

Will you people stop advocating nerfs already?!

[Krag]

but still, a lot of people complain everything is too easy, that there is no challenge. usually it's those with the uber builds and i'm pretty sure those are the people that are complaining the most now. guys, be happy, the game will become a bit more challenging due to the nerf and more fun due to the hopefully reduced lag.

Just curious, are you talking about WF sorcs?

[Borror0]

The correct way is to adjust up, and try to be careful not to create too much of a power creep.

The problem is that always "adjusting up" will eventually lead to power creep. Eventually, you have to nerf.

[R0cksteady]

The problem is that always "adjusting up" will eventually lead to power creep. Eventually, you have to nerf.

Yeah, but when things are already balanced, why only nerf one side? Either power up, or nerf both sides. Drop twitch fighting and keep TWF at least a bit above THF in DPS to justify the sacrifices you have to make to your build and to the time you have to spend to grind for equipment.

[catscan420]

So how is this balance? why would ANYONE be a TWF fighter than a THF barb when Barbs do more damage with less sacrafice and work involved? Twitching is hardly a skill, it takes about 30 seconds to perfect once you're told how it's done.

You honestly think, the sole reason to play a fighter is for the DPS?

[R0cksteady]

You honestly think, the sole reason to play a fighter is for the DPS?

What other reason is there? AC is practically useless, the feats you actually take as a fighter are almost always to raise DPS, since there's very few other roles for melee characters to play in this game. What else is there? You can say Versatility all you want, but a Kensai specs for one weaponstype. You also have lower HP as a fighter than a barb so survivability isn't a plus, not to mention the low saves.

What other reason to play a fighter is there?

[BurningDownTheHouse]

The problem is that always "adjusting up" will eventually lead to power creep. Eventually, you have to nerf.

1. If you are careful you can avoid the power creep.
2. Nerfing something that was in place for years is not the same as nerfing something after a month. Better even accept the power creep at this point.
You need to monitor constantly and if you find a new change unbalancing, remove it immediately, and not after half your player base is viewing it as "the way things should be".

[Meetch1972]

How hard is it to send 12 devs home with a pc or laptop, give them a good character and have them enter the live server, from their homes, for a live test from outside the datacenter?

It's also relatively straightforward to set up an "appliance" that you add as a hop to simulate network lag, packet drops etc. At least one of them is FOSS (Linux based) - just need a spare PC to install it on - you can tune just how bad you want the network response to the client to be...

[catscan420]

What other reason is there? AC is practically useless, the feats you actually take as a fighter are almost always to raise DPS, since there's very few other roles for melee characters to play in this game. What else is there? You can say Versatility all you want, but a Kensai specs for one weaponstype. You also have lower HP as a fighter than a barb so survivability isn't a plus, not to mention the low saves.

What other reason to play a fighter is there?

Maybe in epic AC is useless, but my fighter takes far less damage than a Barbarian while doing just as much damage. Intimidating also helps the rest of the melee folks do even more damage.

Then again, who cares about how much damage you take, right?