Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[TechNoFear]

The procedure is ridiculously simple:
1. Reproduce the problem internally
2. Implement fix
3. Try to reproduce the problem, again, on the same server with the same characters

If the problem disappeared on the second test, then it's safe to conclude that the fix did reduce significantly the load on the server. Perhaps there would still be lag on the live servers, but it does not take away from the fact that one cause of lag was addressed.

If only it always worked that way....

Differences in the test bed environment that are hard to reproduce can play a big part, for example latency and DB load.

(ie I have difficulty simulating the temps and high vibration my devices experience onboard a DASH / EVO heavy haul locomotives, in which normal grade PC parts only last hours before failing.)

[bobbryan2]

The procedure is ridiculously simple:
1. Reproduce the problem internally
2. Implement fix
3. Try to reproduce the problem, again, on the same server with the same characters

If the problem disappeared on the second test, then it's safe to conclude that the fix did reduce significantly the load on the server. Perhaps there would still be lag on the live servers, but it does not take away from the fact that one cause of lag was addressed.

Yeah.. the procedure is simple.

If and only if you can produce the problem internally.

Shroud and Abbot come to mind as examples where they couldn't produce lag players were going to see.

[R0cksteady]

Since TWF fighters are going to be made completely inferior to THF Barbarians, I think a few changes should be made.

-Requirements to TWF feats should go away. You shouldn't have to throw away points into dex if you're not getting a superior fighting style out of it. Fighters really don't get much out of dex unless you're making an AC build, and in that case DPS isn't the focus anyway. Allow us to take the feats with 8 dex so we can keep strength and con maxed out,

-Lower the lag between fighter hastes. Let the clickie last the full 30 second cooldown and don't stop our attacks for so long to use it again.

-Fix the twitch fighting glitch to keep the damage at least close to equal.

If not, at least allow us to deconstruct our GS weapons, so we're not stuck with a bunch of kopeshes which are pointless now that anything other than THF barbarians aren't competitive for DPS.

[R0cksteady]

Because they never have. They don't compensate for ruined characters based on major game changes. It sucks, but its been that way for at least as long as I've been pummeling Stormreach's denizens since back in Mar of '07.

Wow. I farmed for months to make my kopeshes. And now that I have to reroll, I have to do that **** again? Guess I'm stuck with clerics and casters, because there's no way I'm grinding to make weapons after I spent a ton of time making the weapons that are now useless.

[Visty]

twf fighters wont be inferior to thf barbs

[Wizzly_Bear]

Wow. I farmed for months to make my kopeshes. And now that I have to reroll, I have to do that **** again? Guess I'm stuck with clerics and casters, because there's no way I'm grinding to make weapons after I spent a ton of time making the weapons that are now useless.

Don't worry, they will nerf them too.

[Visty]

Wow. I farmed for months to make my kopeshes. And now that I have to reroll, I have to do that **** again? Guess I'm stuck with clerics and casters, because there's no way I'm grinding to make weapons after I spent a ton of time making the weapons that are now useless.

umm, then dont reroll and continue playing your twf?

[R0cksteady]

umm, then dont reroll and continue playing your twf?

lol why? So I can watch all the Barbs do all the damage while I have a character with lower DPS, lower con since I wasted it on Dex to go with an inferior DPS style, and get refused from epic groups because I am running a gimpy class?

[R0cksteady]

They basically already are. TWF fighters BARELY do more damage than THF barbs who use twitch fighting, let alone if you throw the epic SoS in. plus, that barb didn't have to waste points on Dex. plus the fighter needs to put twice as much work into getting weapons. Now that slight damage increase is gone. How is it not inferior?

[Visty]

twiching gets fixed and usin an overpowered weapon as basis for your claim is wring too

[R0cksteady]

Twitching isn't getting fixed. Glancing blows not working while moving doesn't fix twitching, just stops them from hitting multiple enemies while they do it.

[Visty]

lol why? So I can watch all the Barbs do all the damage while I have a character with lower DPS, lower con since I wasted it on Dex to go with an inferior DPS style, and get refused from epic groups because I am running a gimpy class?

and here lies the problem

you dont have to deal the highest dps
you dont have to have the highest con

its a team game, we play with each other not against each other

[FluffyCalico]

Yeah.. the procedure is simple.

If and only if you can produce the problem internally.

Shroud and Abbot come to mind as examples where they couldn't produce lag players were going to see.

How hard is it to send 12 devs home with a pc or laptop, give them a good character and have them enter the live server, from their homes, for a live test from outside the datacenter?

[R0cksteady]

and here lies the problem

you dont have to deal the highest dps
you dont have to have the highest con

its a team game, we play with each other not against each other

Unfortunately, people are elitest and there's already a lot of people who only like to take barbs with them on epic. now that fighters will be clearly just a weaker version of a Barb, why would anyone want to take them?

And in a game which is basically grinding over and over again to make your toon slightly better, why would you take a class that's going to be easily worse than another at the same job?

It's like if they took the few benefits to being a cleric over a FS away. Why be a cleric when you can be a FS? Now, what if Clerics couldn't swap there spells easily, lost their capstone and now they heal less per spell. Why wouldn't you reroll that cleric?

It's essentially the same thing. They;'re nerfing a class that already had trouble keeping up with another class that did the same thing.

[Sinni]

Since TWF fighters are going to be made completely inferior to THF Barbarians, I think a few changes should be made.

-Requirements to TWF feats should go away. You shouldn't have to throw away points into dex if you're not getting a superior fighting style out of it. Fighters really don't get much out of dex unless you're making an AC build, and in that case DPS isn't the focus anyway. Allow us to take the feats with 8 dex so we can keep strength and con maxed out,

-Lower the lag between fighter hastes. Let the clickie last the full 30 second cooldown and don't stop our attacks for so long to use it again.

-Fix the twitch fighting glitch to keep the damage at least close to equal.

If not, at least allow us to deconstruct our GS weapons, so we're not stuck with a bunch of kopeshes which are pointless now that anything other than THF barbarians aren't competitive for DPS.

i'm not commenting your introduction statement as it is wild speculation imo

- You also get reflex save. And as you hopefully know, reflex save is something useful. Besides the THF feats also have prerequisites, it's strength. Ok, every decent melee that isn't going for finesse will have enough str for the feats.

- get quick draw

- agreed there, i don't like the twitch either

agreed with the request, but i still think your statement is wild speculation. but i'd like to see a decompose to recover the ingredients you "wasted" on a char you don't play anymore.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

lol why? So I can watch all the Barbs do all the damage while I have a character with lower DPS, lower con since I wasted it on Dex to go with an inferior DPS style, and get refused from epic groups because I am running a gimpy class?

Not optimal is not necessarily gimp.
A frenzied berzerker barb needs a healer glued to their ass to be able to dish all that damage.
A well built TWF is much more self sufficient.
It's a trade off.

I promise you that at least as far as I'm concerned, I'm not gonna be TWF's even after this nerf.

That's not to mean that I don't hope that the nerf won't happen, just that as it currently stands, it's not game breaking.

[R0cksteady]

i'm not commenting your introduction statement as it is wild speculation imo

- You also get reflex save. And as you hopefully know, reflex save is something useful. Besides the THF feats also have prerequisites, it's strength. Ok, every decent melee that isn't going for finesse will have enough str for the feats.

- get quick draw

- agreed there, i don't like the twitch either

agreed with the request, but i still think your statement is wild speculation. but i'd like to see a decompose to recover the ingredients you "wasted" on a char you don't play anymore.

How is it a wild speculation? A fighter already BARELY out DPSed a TH barb. It was really close. Now there's a nerf coming. it's an admitted nerf. Actually something like 15% if they keep the numbers they have up.

And yeah, reflex save is somewhat useful, but not as useful as say, will save, or extra skill points, or higher con. Why should THF get the otpion to put those points elsewhere and not TWF?

[Dazalarian]

There are no Shadowfiends in Shroud 4. There is however an immobile boss.

Likewise, the boss in Shroud 5 is immobile if properly surrounded.

Look at the specifics.

I've never heard of DPS lag in part 1... but guess what? Portals do not move. And others have complained about it.

Could be that the bug causing the "DPS-lag" actually originates from the aggro-code. Makes kinda sense, you got a boatload of ppl hammering down damage on a stationary boss and if the aggro-code is poorly written I can definately see that there could be some issues with that.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if the portals check for aggro as well they probably inherit the properties of a living mob but with 0 attacks.

hope this is in one of the many avenues that Eladrin is investigating.

Cheers,
-Daz

[Borror0]

and here lies the problem

you dont have to deal the highest dps
you dont have to have the highest con

its a team game, we play with each other not against each other

Visty, your argument is ineffective for two reasons:
1. Many players don't think that way.
2. The goal of this nerf is to satisfy those people, so you can't tell them to ignore it. It is aimed at them.

The right argument is not to say "it ain't that bad" but rather to inform them of what the goal is and tell him how he should react, if he wants his position to be heard. R0cksteady's position is bizarre because, instead of providing evidence showing the imbalance Eladrin's proposition would create, he is complaining about it which has no change to sway Eladrin. Obviously, Eladrin does care about balance or, otherwise, he wouldn't be using it as the justification for the nerf. If R0cksteady thinks this change would create imbalances, he should demonstrate that to be true rather than rant about being nerfed. It would be more productive.

[Sinni]

don't take an epic sos as a measure between the fighting styles. eladrin already admitted they went too far with it and i wouldn't be surprised if it were nerfed considerably. on top of that, you'll first have to get it which will be a lot of work.

i don't really get why people are complaining about the nerf anyway

ok, i get it, because they don't want their uber build become weaker

but still, a lot of people complain everything is too easy, that there is no challenge. usually it's those with the uber builds and i'm pretty sure those are the people that are complaining the most now. guys, be happy, the game will become a bit more challenging due to the nerf and more fun due to the hopefully reduced lag.

edit: btw my mains are a healer fvs and a 2wf kensai. so it's not that i'd "profit" from the change